People of California vs. O.J. Simpson

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LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1995 9:05 A.M. DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE APPEARANCES: (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED; ALSO PRESENT, CARL JONES, ESQUIRE, APPEARING ON BEHALF OF MARGUERITE THOMAS.) (JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. MR. SIMPSON IS NOT PRESENT BEFORE THE COURT. TWO -- THREE OF HIS COUNSEL, MR. SHAPIRO, MR. COCHRAN, MR. BAILEY ARE PRESENT, PEOPLE REPRESENTED BY MISS CHERI LEWIS AND PRESENT ON BEHALF OF THE SUBPOENAED WITNESS IS COUNSEL CARL JONES. GOOD MORNING, MR. JONES. MR. JONES: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: MR. JONES, YOU HAVE A MOTION TO QUASH THE SUBPOENA FOR MARGUERITE SIMPSON THOMAS? MR. JONES: WE HAVE, YOUR HONOR. WE ARE MOVING TO QUASH THE SUBPOENA BASED ON THE OUTRAGEOUS MANNER IN WHICH THE SERVICE TOOK PLACE, ACTIVITIES WHICH WE FEEL SHOULD SHOCK THE CONSCIENCE OF THE COURT AND/OR BECAUSE THE WITNESS HAS NO RELEVANT MATERIAL TESTIMONY TO OFFER. YOU HAVE BEEN PRESENTED WITH TWO SETS OF FACTS. BOTH CANNOT BE TRUE. OUR VERSION HAS A SUBTERFUGE TAKING PLACE AT THE FRONT DOOR OF THE THOMAS HOME ON DECEMBER 27TH. THE PEOPLE'S VERSION, AS REFLECTED IN THE REPORTS, READ AS IF MR. THOMAS DOES NOT EXIST, AS IF NOTHING HAPPENED BETWEEN THE POLICE OFFICERS AND MR. THOMAS AND THAT THEIR ACTIVITIES START AT THE FRONT DOOR WITH MRS. THOMAS WHEN THEY KNOCKED AT THE DOOR, IDENTIFIED THEMSELVES AND POLITELY SERVED HER WITH THE SUBPOENA, AT WHICH POINT SHE RESPONDED, "YOU CHICKEN SHITS," QUOTE, END QUOTE. NOW, WE THINK THAT THE COURT HAS THE POWER TO QUASH THE SUBPOENA IN THIS CASE BECAUSE OF THE POWER INHERENT IN THE COURT TO CONTROL THE PROCEEDINGS THAT TAKE PLACE BEFORE IT. WE ALSO THINK THAT THE COURT HAS THE POWER TO QUASH THE SUBPOENA BASED ON THE CASES IN WHICH OUTRAGEOUS POLICE MISCONDUCT TOOK PLACE AND SERIOUS CRIMINAL CHARGES HAVE BEEN DISMISSED OR CONTRABAND HAS BEEN SUPPRESSED. AND WE TALKED AT ONE PAST APPEARANCE ABOUT THE POWER TO DO THE GREATER SHOULD INCLUDE THE POWER TO DO THE LESSER. IT IS OUR POSITION THAT IF THE COURT BASED ON OUTRAGEOUS POLICE MISCONDUCT, CONDUCT WHICH SHOCKS THE CONSCIENCE OF THE COURT HAS THE POWER TO DISMISS CHARGES AND TO SUPPRESS EVIDENCE, THEN CERTAINLY IT HAS THE POWER TO DO WHAT WE ARE ASKING, WHICH IS TO QUASH THE SUBPOENA. WE ALSO THINK THAT THE POWER OF THIS COURT TO SUPPRESS THE SUBPOENA COMES BY ANALOGY TO OTHER CASES WHERE PRETEXTS HAVE BEEN USED AND THEN CONDEMNED, PRETEXTS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE AREAS OF TRAFFIC STOPS WHERE THEY ARE USED AS A SUBTERFUGE TO CONDUCT SEARCHES FOR EVIDENCE OF OTHER CRIMES. WE HAVE PRETEXTUAL VEHICLE IMPOUNDING AS AN EXCUSE TO DO AN INVENTORY TO RUMMAGE FOR EVIDENCE OF OTHER CRIMES. WE HAVE PRETEXTUAL ARRESTS WHERE ONE ARREST IS MADE AS A RUSE TO CONDUCT A SEARCH FOR EVIDENCE OF OTHER CRIMES. ALL OF THOSE CASES GIVE THIS COURT THE POWER TO QUASH THIS SUBPOENA BECAUSE OF THE PRETEXT THAT WAS USED AT THE DOOR OF THE THOMAS HOME; NAMELY, ASKING MR. THOMAS TO COME OUTSIDE IN RESPONSE TO AN INVESTIGATION HAVING TO DO WITH AN AUTO BURGLARY, A BURGLARY OF HIS VEHICLE, AND WHEN HE DISAPPEARED WITH THE OFFICERS, HAVING THEM COME BACK TO THE DOOR IN HIS ABSENCE, INFER TO MRS. THOMAS THAT HER HUSBAND, HER LOVED ONE, WAS EITHER INJURED OR DEAD AND SHE SHOULD COME OUTSIDE IMMEDIATELY, AT WHICH TIME THEY SERVED HER WITH A SUBPOENA. WE THINK THAT WAS OUTRAGEOUS. WE THINK THAT ALL OF THESE CASES THAT CONDEMN PRETEXTS APPLY AND WE THINK THAT IF THE COURT IS LOOKING FOR ANOTHER REASON TO QUASH, SOME FACTOR IN ADDITION TO THE IMPROPER SERVICE, THEN WE CAN LOOK TO THE FACT THAT MRS. THOMAS HAS NO RELEVANT OR MATERIAL TESTIMONY TO OFFER IN THIS CASE. NOW, IN MY PAPERWORK, I HAVE BEEN SUPPLIED WITH REPORTS THAT SAY OR THAT QUOTE MRS. THOMAS AS INDICATING THAT, "THE DEFENDANT SIMPSON NEVER HIT ME, NEVER BEAT ME, NEVER ABUSED ME, NEVER BATTERED ME." I DON'T THINK THEY WOULD CALL HER IN THEIR CASE TO ESTABLISH THAT. SHE ALSO IS QUOTED AS SAYING, "MR. SIMPSON TOLD ME HE WAS INNOCENT AND THAT HE WAS BEING FRAMED." I DON'T THINK THAT THEY WOULD CALL HER TO TESTIFY TO THAT. SHE ALSO IS QUOTED AS SAYING, "MR. SIMPSON ASKED ME TO KEEP HIS YOUNGER CHILDREN INVOLVED IN THE BLACK CHURCH AND IN TOUCH WITH THE BLACK SIDE OF THEIR HERITAGE." I DON'T THINK THEY WOULD CALL HER TO TESTIFY TO THAT. THE ONLY THING THAT I HAVE BEEN SUPPLIED WITH AS COMING CLOSE TO ANY BASIS FOR CALLING HER IS A REPORT COVERING AN INCIDENT BY -- THAT CAN BE SUMMARIZED AS THIS. ON SOME UNKNOWN DATE ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO, A BACK-UP OFFICER RESPONDED TO AN UNKNOWN ADDRESS WITH UNKNOWN PRIMARY OFFICERS AND TOOK MRS. THOMAS, SIMPSON AT THAT TIME TO AN UNKNOWN LOCATION WHERE SHE STAYED FOR AN UNKNOWN TIME AND THAT THIS BACK-UP OFFICER, THE ONE THING HE IS CERTAIN IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL OF THOSE UNKNOWNS IS THAT SHE, MRS. THOMAS, HAD NO VISIBLE INJURIES. AND I THINK THAT THAT IS NOT RELEVANT, THAT IS NOT MATERIAL AND THAT IS NO REASON TO HAVE HER COME IN HERE. THE OTHER THING THAT I WOULD POINT OUT TO THE COURT -- AND YOU HAVE THIS REPORT ATTACHED TO THE PEOPLE'S RESPONSE -- IS THAT IT APPEARS THAT ON DECEMBER 27TH, WHICH IS THE POINT IN TIME THAT WE SHOULD BE TESTING WHEN THE SUBPOENA WAS SERVED, THAT THE PEOPLE DID NOT HAVE THIS INFORMATION IN THEIR POSSESSION BECAUSE THE NOTATION IN THE BOTTOM LEFT CORNER INDICATES, "RECEIVED 1-9-95." NOW, IF 1-9-95 MEANS JANUARY 9TH, '95, THEY DID NOT HAVE THIS ON DECEMBER 27TH, '94 AND I DON'T THINK IT -- I THINK A GOOD ARGUMENT COULD BE MADE THAT THIS PROVIDES NO BASIS WHATSOEVER AND ATTACHING IT TO THIS -- THESE PAPERS IN OPPOSITION DOES NOT HELP YOU DECIDE WHAT RELEVANT MATERIAL INFORMATION SHE HAD ON DECEMBER 27TH. NOW, I WOULD ASK THE COURT TO DO THE FOLLOWING: OBSERVE THAT NOT ONE SINGLE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY HAS ATTACHED AN AFFIDAVIT TO THESE MOVING PARTIES. AND THAT IS TO THEIR CREDIT I WOULD SUBMIT BECAUSE THESE REPORTS WHICH TEND TO JUSTIFY THIS SERVICE IS A HALF TRUTH, A DISTORTION AND MISLEADING IN THE SENSE THAT IT STARTS AT THE FRONT DOOR AS IF NOTHING HAD EVER HAPPENED. I WOULD ASK THE COURT TO REJECT THE INVITATION BY THE TITLES USED IN THAT POLICE REPORT OF CHAPLAIN OFFICER SO AND SO DOING SUCH AND SUCH BECAUSE THOSE TITLES ARE MISLEADING. AND THE TITLES THAT COME TO MY MIND ARE REVEREND JIM JONES OF THE JAMESTOWN MASSACRE AND REVEREND JIM BAKER AND OTHER REVERENDS THAT DON'T MATCH THE INVITATION THAT'S BEING EXTENDED TO THIS COURT BY THE USE OF THE TERM "CHAPLAIN." I WOULD ASK YOUR HONOR TO CONSIDER THE INCREDIBLE SCENARIO THAT THE PEOPLE WANT YOU TO SWALLOW, WHICH IS, THIS LADY IS IN HIDING AND THEY GO UP TO THE DOOR AND THEY KNOCK ON THE DOOR AND THEY SAY, "MISS THOMAS, POLICE OFFICERS. WOULD YOU PLEASE OPEN THE DOOR," AND THIS LADY WHO IS IN HIDING AND WHO IS IN CONCEALMENT OPENS THE DOOR AND THEY GIVE HER THE SUBPOENA. THAT IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH SOMEONE WHO IS IN HIDING. HER RESPONSE HOWEVER, "YOU CHICKEN SHITS," IS CONSISTENT WITH OUR VERSION OF THE FACTS, WHICH IS, THEY HAD LURED HER HUSBAND OUTSIDE BASED ON A LIE ABOUT HIS VEHICLE BEING BURGLARIZED. THE COURT: WELL, MR. JONES, LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION. MY RECOLLECTION OF THE CIVIL CODE THAT DEALS WITH THE SERVICE OF SUBPOENAS DOES ALLOW A COURT TO ISSUE ORDERS TO ALLOW POLICE OFFICERS TO EVEN BREAK AND ENTER TO SERVE SUBPOENAS UNDER THE APPROPRIATE CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE THESE OFFICERS APPARENTLY DIDN'T RESORT TO THAT. MR. JONES: YOU ARE CORRECT, YOUR HONOR. AND THE DIFFERENCE IS GIGANTIC BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS IN THE SITUATION THAT YOU ARE TOUCHING ON IS THAT A DETACHED NEUTRAL MAGISTRATE, MUCH LIKE THE MAGISTRATE WITH A SEARCH WARRANT, IS GIVEN ALL OF THE INFORMATION THAT THEY HAVE, AND THAT DETACHED, NEUTRAL MAGISTRATE THEN DECIDES WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS SUFFICIENT CAUSE TO AUTHORIZE THESE OFFICERS TO BREAK OPEN THE DOOR IN ORDER TO ACCOMPLISH THE SERVICE. THERE IS NO CODE, CIVIL PROCEDURE, CIVIL, CRIMINAL, PENAL OR ANY OTHER CODE THAT ALLOWS THE OFFICERS TO DO THAT WITHOUT THE EVALUATION OF THE DETACHED, NEUTRAL MAGISTRATE. IN THIS CASE, THE PEOPLE BYPASSED THAT MAGISTRATE AND THEY WENT OUT TO THE HOUSE, AND WHAT THEY DID IS TRAUMATIZE MRS. THOMAS BY INFERRING THE INJURY TO HER HUSBAND. NOW, THERE ARE CASES WHICH PERMIT THE POLICE TO SAY, TELEGRAM, FLORIST, FEDEX OR SOME INNOCUOUS EXCUSE IN ORDER TO GET THE OCCUPANT TO OPEN THE DOOR, BUT THERE IS NO CASE THAT SAYS YOU CAN CREATE THE STRESS AND THE ATTENTION AND THE CLIMATE OF FEAR THAT WAS CREATED IN THIS CASE. THE COURT: SO YOU'RE ANALOGIZING TO THE INTENTIONAL INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL HARM CASES. MR. JONES: WELL, I WOULD EXCEPT THAT SOUNDS LIKE SHE WANTS TO SUE SOMEBODY, AND SHE IS NOT INTERESTED IN SUING. WHAT SHE WANTS IS TO BE TREATED WITH THE RESPECT AND DIGNITY THAT SHE'S ENTITLED TO. SHE'S NOT A SUSPECT, SHE'S NOT A DEFENDANT. SHE HAS DONE NOTHING WRONG EXCEPT BE THE VICTIM OF A CRUEL HOAX BY THESE PEOPLE. THESE REPORTS -- YOU KNOW, IT'S MUCH LIKE WATERGATE. WATERGATE STARTED OFF AS A SECOND-RATE BURGLARY AND IT REACHED A NATIONAL SCANDAL LEVEL BECAUSE OF THE COVER-UP. THESE PEOPLE DID WHAT THEY DID AT THE DOOR AND THEN THEY FILED REPORTS WITH YOU NOT BY ANY POLICE OFFICER WHO WAS INVOLVED, NOT BY ANY DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY WHO WAS INVOLVED AND OMITTING ALL REFERENCES TO WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THEM AND THE HUSBAND AND THEN USES THE TERM "CHAPLAIN" IN ORDER TO INVITE YOU TO ATTACH SOME CREDIBILITY TO THAT AND THEN THEY ATTACH A REPORT THAT THEY APPARENTLY RECEIVED IN JANUARY TO JUSTIFY CONDUCT IN DECEMBER. I THINK IT'S OUTRAGEOUS. I THINK THAT WHAT THEY DID IS TOTALLY INCONSISTENT WITH WHAT THEY CLAIM. THEY CLAIM IN THESE REPORTS THAT SHE WAS NOT IN HIDING. HER RESPONSE INDICATES THAT HER HUSBAND HAD BEEN TRICKED OUTSIDE. AND THEIR REPORTS WHICH INDICATE THAT SHE WAS NOT HIDING I WOULD ADD IS TOTALLY CONTRARY TO THE REPRESENTATIONS MADE BY MRS. CLARK HERE ON JANUARY 3RD WHEN I FILED THESE PAPERS AND I COMPLAINED OF THIS CONDUCT, AND MISS CLARK SAID ON JANUARY 3RD AT 9:00 O'CLOCK, "WE HAD TO DO THAT BECAUSE SHE WAS HIDING FROM US." THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: MISS LEWIS? MS. LEWIS: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: GOOD MORNING. MS. LEWIS: GOOD MORNING. YOUR HONOR, IN DECIDING WHETHER THE COURT SHOULD INDEED QUASH THE SUBPOENA, THERE'S ONLY ONE RELEVANT ISSUE FOR THE COURT TO DECIDE; AND THAT IS WHETHER THIS WITNESS HAS RELEVANT AND MATERIAL INFORMATION TO OFFER. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO AUTHORITY FOR THE PROPOSITION THAT THE COURT CAN QUASH THE SUBPOENA ON ANY GROUND OTHER THAN THAT, AND THAT WAS THE GIST OF OUR RESPONSIVE BRIEF AND THE PEOPLE VERSUS SUPERIOR COURT LONG CASE, WHICH INDEED HOLDS THAT THAT IS THE ONLY MEANS IN WHICH A SUBPOENA FOR A WITNESS CAN BE QUASHED. THE AUTHORITY CITED BY COUNSEL DOES NOT APPLY HERE. THIS MORNING, I SUPPLIED THE COURT AND COUNSEL WITH THE FABRICANT CASE, WHICH INDICATES THE CODE OF CIVIL PROCEDURE SECTION 1987.1 HAS NO APPLICATION IN CRIMINAL CASES. THAT CASE SQUARELY HELD THAT. IN ADDITION, I WAS GOING TO REMIND THE COURT, WHICH THE COURT ALREADY TOOK NOTE OF, OF CODE OF CIVIL PROCEDURE SECTION 1988, WHICH CERTAINLY CARRIES WITH IT A HARSHER MANNER OF ACCOMPLISHING SERVICE THAN ANYTHING THAT WAS NEARLY APPROACHED IN THIS CASE; AND THAT IS TO ALLOW THE SHERIFF'S TO GO BREAK DOWN SOMEONE'S DOOR. CERTAINLY, IF SOMEONE WERE GOING TO SUFFER EMOTIONAL DISTRESS AS A RESULT OF BEING SERVED WITH A SUBPOENA, THAT WOULD BE THE SITUATION WHERE THAT HAPPENS. FURTHER, THE CASE LAW THAT COUNSEL CITES WITH REGARD TO OUTRAGEOUS GOVERNMENTAL CONDUCT HAS NO APPLICATION HERE. THERE'S NOT A SINGLE STATUTE OR SINGLE CASE THAT I'M AWARE OF -- AND I LOOKED TO SEE WHETHER THAT HAS EVER BEEN APPLIED IN THIS INSTANCE IN TERMS OF MOVING TO QUASH A SUBPOENA, AND IT HAS NOT. THERE IS SIMPLY NO AUTHORITY FOR THAT. AS LONG AS COUNSEL MENTIONED THE IDEA OF PRETEXT STOPS, THE EVOLUTION OF THAT LAW INDEED IS THAT SO LONG AS THE POLICE ACT LAWFULLY, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT WAS IN THEIR MIND OR WHAT SUBJECTIVE THINKING THEY HAD. IN FACT, I'M AWARE OF THE MOST RECENT PRETEXT STOP CASE BY THE COURT OF APPEAL WAS PEOPLE VERSUS TODD, DECIDED A COUPLE MONTHS AGO I BELIEVE AT 30 CAL. APP. 4617, AND I THINK THAT WAS THE FOURTH ADVANCE SHEET FROM NOW OR THIRD ADVANCE SHEET FROM NOW. AT ANY RATE, THAT HAS NO APPLICATION HERE EITHER. THAT'S NOT AN ANALOGOUS SITUATION ANYMORE THAN THE CASES WHICH DISMISS BASED ON GOVERNMENT CONDUCT IS. SO WHAT THE COURT REALLY HAS TO DO AND ALL THE COURT HAS TO DECIDE HERE IS WHETHER MARGUERITE SIMPSON HAS RELEVANT AND MATERIAL INFORMATION TO OFFER IN TESTIMONY. AND SHE DOES. WE KNOW FIRST OF ALL THAT SHE WAS MARRIED TO THE DEFENDANT FOR 12 YEARS FROM THE PERIOD OF 1967 TO 1979. AND THE POLICE OFFICER, WHO BY THE WAY, I RECEIVED INFORMATION WITH REGARD TO THAT POLICE OFFICER'S KNOWLEDGE BEFORE WE GOT THE REPORT IN HAND. THAT POLICE OFFICER INDICATED THAT HE HAD BEEN OUT TO THAT LOCATION OF WHERE THE DEFENDANT WAS LIVING WITH HIS FIRST WIFE APPROXIMATELY 20 YEARS PRIOR TO THAT, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN 1974 SINCE THE POLICE OFFICER'S REPORT IS DATED LATE 1994; AND 1974 WOULD HAVE BEEN SQUARELY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 1967 TO 1979 YEARS DURING WHICH MARGUERITE SIMPSON WAS MARRIED TO THE DEFENDANT SIMPSON. AND HE RECALLS THAT WELL ENOUGH TO RECALL THAT SHE HAD CLAIMED SHE HAD BEEN HIT AND THAT SHE AND THE CHILDREN WERE REMOVED FROM THE HOME. THAT IS A SIGNIFICANT EVENT, ESPECIALLY WHEN ONE CONSIDERS THAT IT TOOK PLACE 20 YEARS AGO. AS THE COURT IS CERTAINLY AWARE, THE EVOLUTION OF THE SERIOUSNESS WITH WHICH POLICE RESPOND TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE CALLS HAS BROUGHT US TO THE POINT WHERE THERE IS A SERIOUS RESPONSE. 20 YEARS AGO, I SUBMIT THERE WAS NOT A SERIOUS RESPONSE. SO THE FACT THAT THOSE CHILDREN AND THE WIFE HAD TO BE REMOVED FROM THE HOME CERTAINLY LENDS CREDENCE TO THE IMPORTANCE OF THAT INCIDENT. THE COURT: WHEN WAS THAT INFORMATION MADE AVAILABLE TO THE PROSECUTION? WHEN DID YOU BECOME AWARE OF THAT? MS. LEWIS: YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T MAKE A NOTE OF THE DATE, YOUR HONOR. I JUST -- THE OFFICER WHO HAD THAT REPORT BROUGHT IT INTO THE OFFICE AT SOME TIME AFTER THAT. I'M SORRY, I DIDN'T MAKE NOTE OF THE DATE THAT I BECAME AWARE OF IT, BUT I DID BECOME AWARE OF IT BEFORE WE ACTUALLY GOT THE REPORT. THE COURT: WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO MR. JONES' ARGUMENT THAT THE -- THAT INFORMATION WAS NOT MADE AVAILABLE TO THE PROSECUTION PRIOR TO THE DECEMBER 27TH DATE OF THE SERVICE OF THE SUBPOENA? MS. LEWIS: I THINK THOUGH I CAN NOT HONESTLY TELL THE COURT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. I THINK IT WAS MADE AVAILABLE TO US BEFORE THEN, BUT I AM NOT SURE. AT ANY RATE, YOUR HONOR, THAT IS NOT -- THE COURT: WELL, LET ME ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION THEN. LET'S EXCISE THEN FROM THE THOUGHT PROCESS OF ISSUING A SUBPOENA FOR HER. WHAT IS THERE THAT'S MATERIAL THEN THAT'S LEFT? MS. LEWIS: THERE -- IN TERMS OF HER RELEVANCE IN TESTIMONY? THE COURT: YES. MS. LEWIS: THERE IS A LOT, YOUR HONOR. SHE SPOKE TO A POLICE DETECTIVE WITH ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION JUNE 23RD, 1994 AND SHE HAD SEVERAL THINGS TO SAY WHICH WE, AS THE PROSECUTION, FEEL IT IS INCUMBENT UPON US TO INVESTIGATE AND TO DETERMINE WHAT CAN BE GLEANED FROM THAT INFORMATION. INITIALLY, SHE RECEIVED A THREATENING PHONE CALL ON HER ANSWERING MACHINE WHICH WAS MADE TO, AS SHE DESCRIBED, HER UNLISTED HOME TELEPHONE NUMBER; AND DURING THAT MESSAGE THAT WAS LEFT, THE MAN WHO LEFT THE MESSAGE THREATENED TO KILL HER. NOW, SHE WAS ADVISED BY DETECTIVE HARO I BELIEVE IT WAS OF RHD, ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION, TO SAVE THAT MICROCASSETTE. WE WOULD LIKE TO TALK TO HER ABOUT THAT. WE WOULD LIKE TO OBTAIN THAT MICROCASSETTE AND DO VOICE COMPARISONS. ALTHOUGH MISS SIMPSON THOMAS INDICATED THAT SHE DID NOT RECOGNIZE THE VOICE ON THAT TAPE, WE AS PROSECUTORS WOULD LIKE TO DO SOME COMPARISONS WITH KNOWN VOICES AND SEE IF THERE'S -- THE COURT: EXCUSE ME. MISS LEWIS, WAS THAT THREATENING PHONE CALL, THE MESSAGE, WAS IT RELEVANT TO ANY FACTS OR CIRCUMSTANCES OF THIS CASE? MS. LEWIS: WELL, WE DON'T KNOW. THE TIMING WAS VERY INTERESTING, THAT IT HAPPENED ON JUNE 23RD, YOUR HONOR, ONLY 13 DAYS OR 10 DAYS, 11 DAYS AFTER THE MURDERS IN THIS CASE. SO WE NEED TO FIND OUT WHAT THAT -- EXACTLY WHAT IS ON THAT TAPE. WE NEED TO DO COMPARISONS. PART OF THE DIFFICULTY IS THAT IN THAT -- AND I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO A FACTUAL DISPUTE, BUT PART OF THE DIFFICULTY WAS THAT MARGUERITE SIMPSON THOMAS WAS INDEED EVADING CONTACT WITH THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SO WE COULD NOT DETERMINE THAT IN ANOTHER MANNER. BUT OF EVEN GREATER SALIENT RELEVANCE TO THIS PARTICULAR CASE WAS A CONVERSATION SHE HAD ON JUNE 17TH WITH THE DEFENDANT AT BOB KARDASHIAN'S HOME IN ENCINO, AND SHE INDICATED TO THE POLICE DETECTIVES WHO INTERVIEWED HER THAT THE DEFENDANT SIMPSON ASKED HER TO GO TO HIS HOME ON ROCKINGHAM. THAT'S ALL THE REPORT INDICATES IN THAT REGARD. WE NEED TO KNOW WHY, FOR WHAT PURPOSE. THIS WAS HOURS BEFORE THE DEFENDANT FLED WITH MR. COWLINGS IN THE FORD BRONCO AND AFTER HE KNEW HE WAS GOING TO BE ARRESTED. WE WANT TO KNOW THE DETAILS OF THAT CONVERSATION. IN ADDITION, YOUR HONOR, APPARENTLY SHE ALSO SPOKE TO MR. SIMPSON WHEN SHE DID ARRIVE AT THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE BY CELL PHONE. APPARENTLY THE DEFENDANT CALLED HER ON THE CELL PHONE FROM THE BRONCO AND SPOKE TO HER AT THAT TIME. WE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE DETAILS OF THAT CONVERSATION. THESE ARE ALL FACTS THAT COULD WELL BE VERY IMPORTANT TO THE CASE. NOW, RECOGNIZING THAT THE COURT HAS MADE VALIANT ATTEMPTS TO LIMIT BOTH SIDES TO ONLY THE ONE ARGUMENT IN CASES, I WANT TO ADDRESS FOR A MOMENT THE IDEA THAT EVEN IF THE COURT WERE TO ACCEPT A NOTION THAT THE COURT HAS THE AUTHORITY EVEN WITHOUT STATUTE OR WITHOUT CASE LAW ON POINT TO DISMISS THE SUBPOENA OR TO QUASH THE SUBPOENA BASED ON OUTRAGEOUS GOVERNMENTAL CONDUCT, THIS DECLARATION WHICH MR. JONES HAS PROVIDED, YOUR HONOR, ACTUALLY READ MORE LIKE TO ME A CIVIL COMPLAINT FOR INTENTIONAL OR NEGLIGENT INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL DISTRESS. I FOUND IT INTERESTING THAT THE COURT MADE A SIMILAR TYPE OF OBSERVATION BECAUSE IT CONCENTRATES A GREAT DEAL ON MARGUERITE SIMPSON THOMAS' STATE OF MIND AS A RESULT OF THE ALLEGED CONDUCT. BUT WHAT I WANT TO DO AND I DO -- I WANT TO MAKE IT CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT THE ALLEGATIONS AS SET FORTH WITH REGARD TO DECEMBER 27TH IN MR. JONES' DECLARATION ARE NOT THE WAY THAT IT HAPPENED, AND WE CAN HAVE A FULL-BLOWN HEARING AND TAKE UP THIS COURT'S TIME DESPITE HAVING A SEQUESTERED JURY AND ASK THE COURT TO MAKE THAT DETERMINATION. BUT I DO WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT WE ARE NOT SAYING THOSE FACTS HAPPENED. THEY DID NOT HAPPEN. BUT I WOULD ASK THE COURT TO TREAT THAT DECLARATION SORT OF LIKE A COMPLAINT IN A CIVIL CASE AND A DEMURRER WHICH IS BROUGHT AGAINST IT AND LOOK AT THE ALLEGATIONS ON THEIR FACE. EVEN ACCEPTING THEY'RE TRUE -- AND AGAIN, I CAN'T SAY IT ENOUGH ESPECIALLY WITH A CAMERA AND THE WAY NON-LAWYERS UNDERSTAND THESE THINGS, THAT DID NOT GO DOWN THAT WAY AND WE HAVE THE INVESTIGATORS INVOLVED IN IT HERE PREPARED TO TESTIFY, AND WE CAN TAKE ALL THE COURT'S TIME THE COURT I'M SURE DOESN'T WANT TO DO IN THAT REGARD. BUT IF THE COURT LOOKS AT THE ALLEGATIONS THAT ARE MADE WITH REGARD TO THE CONDUCT IN MR. JONES' DECLARATION, ALL IT ALLEGES IS THAT THE POLICE CALLED THE HUSBAND OUTSIDE ON A PRETEXT, YELLED SOMETHING ABOUT HER HUSBAND WHICH CAUSED HER TO OPEN THE DOOR. IT DOES NOT EVEN INDICATE WHAT IT WAS THAT WAS YELLED WITHIN THE DECLARATION, BUT YELLED SOMETHING ABOUT HER HUSBAND WHICH CAUSED HER TO OPEN THE DOOR AND PUT THEIR FOOT IN THE DOOR LONG ENOUGH TO THROW A SUBPOENA INSIDE. AND THAT'S THE END OF THE FACTUAL ALLEGATION. THEN IT TALKS ABOUT HER MENTAL STATE. SO BY IMPLICATION, LAW ENFORCEMENT LEFT AT THAT TIME. SO WHAT I'M SUGGESTING, YOUR HONOR, IS, EVEN IF THE COURT WERE TO WANT TO LOOK BEYOND, WANTED TO LOOK AT THE FACTS THEMSELVES, WHICH THE COURT NEED NOT DO IN THIS REGARD, AS A MATTER OF LAW, THERE IS NO OUTRAGEOUS GOVERNMENTAL CONDUCT EVEN UNDER THE ALLEGATIONS THAT MR. JONES' DECLARATION, WHICH APPARENTLY IS NOT INFORMATION AND BELIEF, ALLEGES. IN FACT, THE TRUSTWORTHINESS OF THOSE ALLEGATIONS IS INHERENTLY UNTRUSTWORTHY. MISS MARGUERITE THOMAS, WHEN SHE APPEARED ON THE BARBARA WALTERS SHOW INDICATED THAT THE POLICE HAD SAID THERE HAD BEEN A RASH OF BURGLARIES AND FOR HER HUSBAND TO COME OUTSIDE AND CHECK. EVEN THAT IS INCONSISTENT WITH WHAT IS STATED IN THIS DECLARATION, WHICH WAS THAT THE HUSBAND WAS TOLD HIS CAR WAS BURGLARIZED. SO -- BUT LIKE I SAID, I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO A FACTUAL DISPUTE BECAUSE IT'S NOT IMPORTANT. IT'S A WASTE OF THIS COURT'S TIME AND RESOURCES, AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A SUBPOENA ON A WITNESS. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT GOES TO THE DEFENDANT'S GUILT OR INNOCENCE DIRECTLY AND SHOULD CONSUME THIS COURT'S TIME. BUT, YOUR HONOR, THE ONLY ISSUE THAT THE CASE LAW ALLOWS THIS COURT TO DECIDE IS WHETHER INDEED THIS WITNESS HAS RELEVANT AND MATERIAL INFORMATION TO OFFER. AND FOR THE REASONS SET FORTH, WE CERTAINLY BELIEVE THAT SHE DOES AND CONSEQUENTLY WE ASK THE COURT TO DENY THE MOTION TO QUASH THE SUBPOENA. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, MISS LEWIS. MR. JONES, DO YOU HAVE ANY BRIEF RESPONSE? MR. JONES: VERY BRIEF, YOUR HONOR. YOUR HONOR, COUNSEL REFERS TO SOME ADDITIONAL HEARING SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE. I'VE BEEN HERE THREE TIMES. IT WAS MY IMPRESSION THIS IS THE HEARING. IF THEY HAVE WITNESSES, IF THEY HAVE INFORMATION, IF THEY HAVE DOCUMENTS, IF THEY HAVE BARBARA WALTERS, THEN THIS IS THE TIME FOR IT. WE ARE ASKING THE COURT TO QUASH THIS SUBPOENA. THEY SAY THEY WANT -- THEY NEED TO INVESTIGATE THINGS. WELL, THE THIRST FOR KNOWLEDGE IS ADMIRABLE, BUT YOU DON'T DO IT BY SUBPOENA. IT'S THE REVERSE. YOU DO THE INVESTIGATION, YOU DEVELOP RELEVANT AND MATERIAL INFORMATION AND THEN YOU SERVE THE WITNESS WITH A SUBPOENA. YOU CAN NOT SERVE THE WITNESS WITH A SUBPOENA AND GO FISHING ONCE SHE IS ON THE STAND, AND I THINK THAT THAT'S LUDICROUS. SECONDLY, THEY TALK ABOUT THE WEAKNESS OF OUR FACTUAL SCENARIO. I WOULD JUST SUBMIT IT TO THE COURT THAT THE RESPONSE BY THIS LADY AFTER THIS APPROACH, KNOCK, KNOCK, POLICE OFFICERS, MRS. THOMAS, MAY WE COME IN, OPEN THE DOOR, AND SHE SAYS YOU CHICKEN SHITS, THAT SPEAKS VOLUMES FOR WHAT HAPPENED AND WHERE THE TRUTH LIES WITH RESPECT TO THIS FACTUAL CONTROVERSY. AND LASTLY, THIS CASE THAT THEY GAVE ME THIS MORNING SAYS YOU CAN'T ASSESS FEES AFTER YOU QUASH THE SUBPOENA. I CONCEDE THAT. WE'RE NOT REQUESTING FEES. WE DO ASK THE COURT TO QUASH THE SUBPOENA. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. ALL RIGHT. I ACCEPT THE ARGUMENT BY MR. JONES THAT THE COURT DOES HAVE INHERENT POWER TO QUASH SUBPOENAS IN THE FACE OF OUTRAGEOUS CONDUCT BY EITHER PARTY IN THE SERVICE OF A SUBPOENA ALTHOUGH I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO FIND ANY CASE AUTHORITY THAT DIRECTLY SAYS SO, BUT I ACCEPT THAT AS A GIVEN AND I WILL BE SURPRISED IF ANY APPELLATE COURT WOULD OVERTURN THAT PARTICULAR FINDING. IN EXAMINING THE ASSERTIONS IN THE MOVING PAPERS, HOWEVER, I FIND THAT FACTUALLY THAT THE FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES IN THIS SITUATION DO NOT RISE TO THE LEVEL OF OUTRAGE THAT WOULD SHOCK THE CONSCIENCE OF THE COURT. AND SO ON THAT GROUNDS, I DECLINE TO QUASH THE SUBPOENA. THEN THE COURT HAS TO FOCUS ITS ATTENTION TO WHETHER OR NOT THE WITNESS HAS SOME RELEVANT INFORMATION WITH REGARDS TO THIS CASE. THE FACT THAT THE WITNESS ON JUNE THE 17TH DID IN FACT HAVE OR IS ALLEGED TO HAVE HAD TWO TELEPHONE CONVERSATIONS WITH THE DEFENDANT AND WAS -- WHICH RELATE BOTH TO THE DATE OF THE ARREST AND THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE, I FIND THAT THAT IS A SUFFICIENT SHOWING FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE ISSUANCE OF A SUBPOENA. SO THE MOTION TO QUASH THE SUBPOENA IS DENIED. ALL RIGHT. COUNSEL, WE HAD PREVIOUSLY ISSUED AND HELD A BODY ATTACHMENT FOR YOUR CLIENT UNTIL TODAY'S DATE. YOU WANT TO MAKE HER AVAILABLE ON SOME DATE IN THE FUTURE AND I'LL HOLD THE WARRANT -- EXCUSE ME -- HOLD THE BODY ATTACHMENT TO THAT DATE? MR. JONES: YES, YOUR HONOR. I WOULD APPRECIATE BEING GIVEN A DATE BY UPON WHICH THE PEOPLE INTEND TO PLACE MRS. THOMAS ON THE STAND WITHOUT ANY PRIOR INTERVIEWS. THE COURT: SHE'S DECLINING ANY PRIOR INTERVIEWS? MR. JONES: I BEG YOUR PARDON? THE COURT: SHE IS GOING TO DECLINE TO BE INTERVIEWED? MR. JONES: ABSOLUTELY. AS A RESULT OF THIS TREATMENT, SHE HAS NO WILLINGNESS TO BE INTERVIEWED BY THE PEOPLE WHO WERE INVOLVED. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MS. LEWIS: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: CERTAINLY. (BRIEF PAUSE.) MR. JONES: I WOULD ADD SHE LIVES IN ORANGE COUNTY. SO I WOULD APPRECIATE A REALISTIC DATE WHEN THEY WILL PUT HER ON THE STAND. MS. LEWIS: YOUR HONOR, I JUST WANT TO -- THE COURT: I WOULD SUGGEST THEN THAT WE PLACE HER -- GIVE US A RELATIVELY -- WE'LL GET A DATE AND THEN WE'LL PLACE HER ON CALL AND MAKE THE ARRANGEMENTS THROUGH YOUR OFFICE, MR. JONES, IF THAT'S AGREEABLE TO YOU. MR. JONES: I WILL REPRESENT THAT WE WILL COOPERATE AND SHE WILL BE HERE. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MS. LEWIS: MAY I MENTION, YOUR HONOR, THAT MISS THOMAS HAS BEEN IN THE AUDIENCE OBSERVING THESE PROCEEDINGS QUITE A BIT DURING THE TRIAL. IT DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE BEEN A HARDSHIP FOR HER TO ARRIVE FROM ORANGE COUNTY. THE COURT: WELL, AS A MATTER -- SHE IS GOING TO BE HERE WITH HER COUNSEL AS WELL THOUGH. SO KNOWING MR. JONES' SCHEDULE AS WELL, I'M WILLING TO ACCOMMODATE BOTH MR. JONES AND THE WITNESS. MS. LEWIS: TENTATIVELY FOR MARCH 3RD, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: MARCH 3? MS. LEWIS: UH-HUH. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MARCH 3. BODY ATTACHMENT WILL BE CONTINUED TO BE HELD UNTIL FRIDAY, MARCH 3 AT 9:00 A.M. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MR. JONES: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. MS. LEWIS: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT WE'VE BEEN JOINED BY THE DEFENDANT, MR. SIMPSON. MISS CLARK, ARE YOU PREPARED TO CALL YOUR NEXT WITNESS? MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. COCHRAN, ANYTHING ELSE BEFORE WE ASK THE JURY TO JOIN US? MR. COCHRAN: THERE'S ONE OTHER MATTER, BUT I THINK WE CAN DO IT LATER. I DO HAVE A QUESTION, YOUR HONOR, THAT I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH ON WITHOUT THE REPORTER. THE COURT: CERTAINLY. MR. COCHRAN: IT HAS TO DO WITH THE WEATHER. (A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.) THE COURT: MISS CLARK, I'M GOING TO INVITE THE JURY TO JOIN US. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE THE JURY, PLEASE. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE HAVE NOW BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL. GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. THE JURY: GOOD MORNING. THE COURT: MISS CLARK, YOU MAY CALL YOUR NEXT WITNESS. MS. CLARK: WE WOULD CALL EVA STEIN. THE COURT: I'M SORRY, MISS CLARK. WHAT WAS THE NAME? MS. CLARK: EVA STEIN. THE COURT: EVA STEIN. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. MISS STEIN, WOULD YOU COME FORWARD, PLEASE. MISS STEIN. MS. CLARK: I THOUGHT YOU WERE CALLING ME. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS STEIN, WOULD YOU STEP AROUND COUNSEL TABLE HERE AND STAND OVER BY OUR COMPUTER PROJECTOR. EVA STEIN, CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE, WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: THE CLERK: WILL YOU PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU MAY GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT, SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD? THE WITNESS: I DO. THE CLERK: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT IN THE WITNESS STAND AND STATE AND SPELL YOUR FIRST AND LAST NAMES FOR THE RECORD. THE WITNESS: EVA STEIN. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. HAVE A SEAT. ALL RIGHT. COULD YOU SPELL YOUR NAME, PLEASE. THE WITNESS: EVA STEIN, E-V-A S-T-E-I-N. THE COURT: THANK YOU, MA'AM. MISS CLARK. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK: Q GOOD MORNING, MISS STEIN. A GOOD MORNING. Q ARE YOU A LITTLE NERVOUS? A YES, I AM. Q TAKE A DEEP BREATH. I'M GOING TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT WHERE YOU WERE LIVING ON THE DATE OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994. A I WAS LIVING ON 873 SOUTH BUNDY. Q AND DO YOU KNOW WHERE THAT IS IN RELATIONSHIP TO 875 SOUTH BUNDY? A IT'S JUST NORTH. Q IS THAT RIGHT NEXT DOOR? A YES. IT'S THE BUILDING RIGHT NEXT DOOR. Q AND WAS THERE SOMEONE LIVING THERE WITH YOU AT THE TIME? A YES. MY BOYFRIEND. Q AND HIS NAME? A LOU KARPF. THE COURT: HOW DO YOU SPELL KARPF? THE WITNESS: K-A-R-P-F. THE COURT: THANK YOU. Q BY MS. CLARK: TO YOUR LEFT IS A BIG BOARD THAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 26. DO YOU SEE THE LOCATION I'M POINTING TO, THE INTERSECTION OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY (INDICATING)? A YES, I DO. Q OKAY. IF THIS PURPLE HOUSE -- EXCUSE ME. IF THIS RED HOUSE HERE IS 875 SOUTH BUNDY, WHAT WOULD THIS BLUE HOUSE BE (INDICATING)? A THAT BLUE HOUSE WOULD BE 873 SOUTH BUNDY. Q YOUR RESIDENCE? A YES. Q NOW, YOUR PARTICULAR APARTMENT AT 873 SOUTH BUNDY, DID IT FACE THE STREET? A UMM, IT -- YES. IT WAS IN THE BACK OF THE CONDO UNIT AND IT DID FACE THE STREET. Q A STREET WHERE CARS DRIVE BACK AND FORTH OR WAS IT AN ALLEY? A WELL, THE BEDROOM WHERE I'M -- THE BEDROOM PART FACED THE ALLEY. Q OKAY. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND MR. FAIRTLOUGH.) Q BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU LOOK ON YOUR MONITOR NEXT TO YOU THERE? THANK YOU. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE LOCATION SHOWN THERE? DOES THAT LOOK FAMILIAR TO YOU? A WELL, IT'S THE BACK ALLEY OF UMM -- IT'S THE BACK ALLEY. Q NOW, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE BUILDING THAT IS ON YOUR RIGHT AS YOU FACE THE PHOTOGRAPH WITH THE LIGHTS ON THE BALCONY AND A JEEP PARKED IN THE DRIVEWAY, SEE WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT? A WELL, I SEE A FEW CARS PARKED IN THE DRIVEWAY. Q OKAY. DO YOU SEE ONE THAT'S PARKED FACING INTO THE DRIVEWAY? A YES, I DO. Q OKAY. IF THAT WAS 875 SOUTH BUNDY, WHERE WOULD YOUR APARTMENT HAVE BEEN IN RELATION TO THAT? A WELL, IT'S RIGHT BEHIND -- IT'S RIGHT BEHIND THAT WHERE THE LIGHTS ARE ON. Q I'M GOING TO USE THE LASER POINTER. SEE THAT MOVING CROSS? A YES, I DO. Q OKAY. MS. CLARK: CAN YOU MOVE IT UP, JONATHAN? Q BY MS. CLARK: WOULD YOUR BUILDING BE RIGHT THERE WHERE THAT MOVING CROSS IS SHOWN? A YES. Q OKAY. AND SO DO YOU HAVE AN ENTRY THAT OPENS ONTO THE ALLEY THERE? A YES, I DO. Q IS THAT THE ENTRANCE THAT YOU USE FOR YOUR -- THAT YOU USED FOR YOUR APARTMENT BACK IN JUNE OF '94? A THAT IS THE ENTRANCE THAT I USED, YES. IT IS THE GARAGE ENTRANCE. THE COURT: EXCUSE ME, MISS CLARK. WHICH EXHIBIT IS THIS? MS. CLARK: I AM SORRY, YOUR HONOR. IS THAT PEOPLE'S 38? THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 38. ALL RIGHT. AND ARE WE GOING TO BE ABLE TO PRESERVE THAT PARTICULAR MARK? MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR. WE'RE GOING TO PRINT. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THEN THE PRINT WE'LL DESIGNATE AS PEOPLE'S 38-A. Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. NOW, I'M -- DID YOU HAVE AN ENTRY THAT OPENED ONTO BUNDY AS WELL? A YES. MS. CLARK: ARE YOU PRINTING? MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YES. MS. CLARK: OKAY. Q BY MS. CLARK: ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994, WHAT TIME DID YOU GET HOME? A UMM, I GOT HOME LATE IN THE -- LATER ON IN THE AFTERNOON. Q AND DO YOU RECALL WHETHER LOUIS KARPF WAS HOME ON THAT DAY? A NO, HE WAS NOT. Q DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS? A HE WAS VISITING FAMILY IN SAN JOSE FOR THE WEEKEND. Q AND DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME YOU WENT TO BED THAT NIGHT? A I WENT TO BED A COUPLE MINUTES BEFORE 10:00 O'CLOCK. Q NOW, YOUR BEDROOM -- DID YOUR APARTMENT HAVE AN UPSTAIRS AND A DOWNSTAIRS? A YES. Q AND WHERE WAS THE BEDROOM? A UPSTAIRS. Q SO WHEN YOU WENT TO BED, YOU WENT UPSTAIRS TO GO TO BED? A YES, I DID. Q DID SOMETHING AWAKEN YOU? A YES. Q WHAT? A A VERY LOUD BARKING OF DOGS. Q AND WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN THAT LOUD BARKING WOKE YOU UP? A WELL, UMM, I WAS SLEEPING AND I HAD HEARD THE DOGS BARKING AND I TRIED TO GO BACK TO SLEEP AND I COULDN'T BECAUSE THE DOGS -- THE BARKING SEEMED TO BE VERY, VERY PERSISTENT, NONSTOP AND VERY, VERY LOUD AND IT ACTUALLY KEPT ME FROM FALLING BACK TO SLEEP. Q COULD YOU TELL IF IT WAS ONE DOG OR TWO DOGS? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. THAT ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: UMM, WHEN I HAD FIRST AWOKEN OUT OF MY SLEEP, IT SOUNDED LIKE -- YOU KNOW, IT SOUNDED LIKE A FEW DOGS. Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. COULD IT HAVE BEEN ONE, COULD YOU TELL. MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WAY IT'S PHRASED, IT'S COMPOUND HOWEVER. MS. CLARK: SORRY. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q BY MS. CLARK: COULD YOU TELL FOR SURE WHETHER IT WAS ONE OR MORE DOGS? A NO. Q HAD YOU EVER HEARD BARKING THAT LOUD AND THAT INSISTENT IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD BEFORE? A NOT AT THAT HOUR OF THE EVENING. IT'S A PRETTY QUIET AREA. I'VE NEVER REALLY HEARD, YOU KNOW, VERY MUCH BARKING. Q SO THE BARKING WOKE YOU UP AND YOU COULDN'T GO BACK TO SLEEP? A NO, I COULDN'T GO BACK TO SLEEP BECAUSE IT JUST WAS VERY UNUSUALLY LOUD. IT WAS JUST LIKE A REGULAR BARK. IT JUST SEEMED VERY, YOU KNOW, LIKE INSISTENT LOUD BARK. IT JUST DIDN'T STOP AND I REMEMBER BEING VERY ANNOYED BECAUSE I COULDN'T FALL BACK TO SLEEP. Q COULD YOU TELL OR DID YOU HAVE A SENSE OF WHERE THAT BARKING WAS COMING FROM, WHAT DIRECTION? A WELL, FACING, YOU KNOW, THE ALLEY FROM MY BEDROOM, IT SEEMED TO BE COMING FROM THE LEFT A DISTANCE DOWN ON THE LEFT SIDE. Q SO IF YOU WERE FACING THE ALLEY, IT WOULD BE TO YOUR LEFT? A IT WOULD BE TO MY LEFT. Q AND WOULD THAT BE SOUTH OF YOU? A UMM, YES. Q CAN YOU LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR? SEE WHERE THE CROSS IS? A YES, I DO. Q WOULD IT BE FROM THAT LOCATION THAT YOU HEARD THE BARKING COMING? MR. COCHRAN: LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE, YOUR HONOR. SHE SAID DISTANCE DOWN THE ALLEY. OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q BY MS. CLARK: AND YOUR ANSWER WAS, WAS IT COMING FROM THAT AREA WHERE YOU SEE THE CROSS? A IT SEEMED TO BE COMING -- YES, FROM THAT AREA, BUT LIKE, YOU KNOW, FURTHER DOWN. Q HOW ABOUT THERE (INDICATING)? A ALMOST FROM THE END OF THE ALLEY LIKE FROM WHERE THE STREET STARTS. Q SEEMED TO BE COMING FROM -- MR. COCHRAN: COULD WE HAVE THAT MARKED, YOUR HONOR, THE ALLEY WITH THE STREET? MS. CLARK: WELL, EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. COULD COUNSEL ALLOW ME TO QUESTION THE WITNESS? THE COURT: COUNSEL, YOU CAN DO THAT ON CROSS-EXAMINATION IF YOU LIKE. MS. CLARK: COUNSEL WILL HAVE PLENTY OF TIME I'M SURE. THE COURT: YES. MS. CLARK: COULD YOU -- JONATHAN, COULD YOU MOVE IT DOWN FARTHER, PLEASE? THERE WE GO. Q BY MS. CLARK: TELL US WHEN TO STOP. A YES. AROUND -- AROUND THAT AREA (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. COULD YOU PUT A CIRCLE THERE? Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. NOW, THAT WAS A GENERAL SENSE OF DIRECTION? A THAT WAS THE GENERAL SENSE, YES. Q SO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TO THE SOUTH OF WHERE YOU WERE? A YES. Q AT SOME POINT, DID MR. KARPF GET HOME? A YES, HE DID. Q WHEN HE DID, WAS THE DOG STILL BARKING? A YES, IT WAS. Q AND WHEN HE GOT HOME, ABOUT HOW LONG WAS THAT AFTER THE DOG BARKING WOKE YOU UP? A IT WAS APPROXIMATELY HALF AN HOUR AFTER I WOKE UP. Q HOW COULD YOU TELL WHEN MR. KARPF GOT HOME? A I ASKED HIM WHAT TIME HE CAME HOME THE FOLLOWING DAY. Q OKAY. AND HE TOLD YOU? A QUARTER TO 11:00. Q SO YOU BEGAN TO HEAR THE DOG BARK AT APPROXIMATELY 10:15? A AT APPROXIMATELY 10:15. Q NOW, DID YOU SEE -- DID YOU SEE MR. KARPF WHEN HE GOT HOME THAT NIGHT? A YES. Q AND WHEN YOU SAW HIM, WHERE WAS THAT; UPSTAIRS OR DOWNSTAIRS? A DOWNSTAIRS. Q AND HAD HE -- DID YOU SEE ANYTHING IN HIS HANDS? A NO. Q WAS THE DOG STILL BARKING AT THAT POINT? A I DON'T REMEMBER. Q DID YOU EVER GO BACK TO SLEEP? A I DID GO BACK UPSTAIRS AND I TRIED TO GO BACK TO SLEEP, UMM, KIND OF DOSED IN AND OUT, NOT REALLY, YOU KNOW, FELL BACK TO SLEEP. Q AND WHY IS THAT? A I JUST -- UMM, I JUST COULDN'T FALL BACK TO SLEEP. Q WAS THERE SOMETHING PREVENTING YOU FROM FALLING BACK TO SLEEP? A I THINK JUST BECAUSE I HAD BEEN ALREADY UP AND WAS WOKEN UP AND LOU HAD COME HOME, MY BOYFRIEND, AND I WAS JUST -- I GUESS I WAS JUST KIND OF WAITING FOR HIM TO COME UP AND NO OTHER REASON I COULD THINK OF. Q WAS THERE ANY NOISE OUTSIDE? A I DON'T REMEMBER. Q DO YOU REMEMBER HEARING THE POLICE ARRIVE? A YES, I DO. Q AND WAS THAT -- HOW LONG WAS THAT APPROXIMATELY AFTER LOUIS GOT HOME? A WELL, LOUIS STAYED DOWNSTAIRS FOR A WHILE AND CAME UP, YOU KNOW, CLOSE TO MIDNIGHT, AND THEN SOMETIME AFTER MIDNIGHT, I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT TIME, IS WHEN I STARTED -- WHEN I HEARD THE POLICE COME AND ALL THE COMMOTION IN THE ALLEY, YOU KNOW, JUST FROM THE POLICE CARS. Q SO IT WAS SOMETIME AROUND MIDNIGHT, AFTER MIDNIGHT? A AFTER MIDNIGHT. Q AND DID YOU AND LOUIS HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT A DOG THAT HE SAW THAT NIGHT? A NO. Q WAS IT AFTER THAT? DID HE AT SOME POINT TELL YOU ABOUT A DOG HE HAD SAW THAT NIGHT? A YES. THE NEXT DAY AFTER WE FOUND OUT WHAT HAPPENED. Q WHAT DID HE TELL YOU? MR. COCHRAN: HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q BY MS. CLARK: AS OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994, HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN LIVING THERE? A APPROXIMATELY A YEAR. Q AND HAD YOU EVER HEARD A DOG BARKING LIKE THAT BEFORE? A NOT IN THAT -- NOT IN THAT INTENSE WAY, NO. I MEAN I'VE HEARD DOGS BARKING IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, BUT NOT AS INTENSE AS I HEARD IT THAT EVENING AND NONSTOP LIKE THAT. Q THANK YOU, MISS STEIN. THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN. MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN: Q GOOD MORNING, MISS STEIN. A GOOD MORNING. Q I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU JUST A FEW QUESTIONS IF I MIGHT. YOU LIVED AT A HOUSE JUST NORTH OF THE 875 SOUTH BUNDY RESIDENCE AT 873; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES, THAT IS. Q AND AS I UNDERSTAND YOUR TESTIMONY, MISS STEIN, THE BEDROOM WINDOW OF YOUR RESIDENCE FACES WEST KIND OF LOOKING OVER THIS ALLEY WE SEE DEPICTED ON PEOPLE'S 38 I GUESS; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. THE BEDROOM FACES OVER THE ALLEY. Q AND YOU RECALL TALKING WITH THE POLICE IN CONNECTION WITH WHAT YOU HAD OBSERVED ON JUNE 12TH, 1994 BACK ON 11-9-94? DO YOU RECALL TALKING TO THE POLICE OFFICERS? A I RECALL TALKING TO TWO. Q TO SOME POLICE OFFICERS ABOUT WHAT YOU OBSERVED? A AT MY WORK. THEY CAME TO MY WORK. Q YES. IN FACT, YOU TALKED WITH THE INVESTIGATING OFFICERS IN THIS CASE, DETECTIVES LANGE AND VANNATTER; ISN'T THAT CORRECT? A YES, THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND THEY CAME TO YOUR PLACE OF WORK IN THE CITY OF VERNON? A YES. Q AND THEY SPOKE TO YOU; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. Q AND WHEN YOU SPOKE TO THE OFFICERS, YOU OF COURSE TRIED TO BE AS ACCURATE AS YOU COULD; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. Q AND YOU TOLD THEM WHAT YOU RECALL; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. Q AND WOULD I BE CORRECT IN ASSUMING THAT IN NOVEMBER OF 1994, THE EVENTS WERE FRESHER IN YOUR MIND AT THAT TIME FOR THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN JUNE THAN THEY ARE NOW? IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT? A I ASSUME SO. Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHEN TALKING TO DETECTIVES LANGE AND VANNATTER, YOU TOLD THEM, DID YOU NOT, THAT YOU WENT TO SLEEP BETWEEN 9:45 AND ABOUT 10:00 O'CLOCK -- OR STRIKE THAT. THAT YOU WENT -- YOU GOT INTO BED BY 9:45, BETWEEN THAT AND 10:00 O'CLOCK; IS THAT CORRECT? A I DON'T RECALL SAYING I GOT INTO BED BETWEEN 9:45 AND 10:00 O'CLOCK. I RECALL SAYING THAT I WENT TO SLEEP AT APPROXIMATELY 10:00 O'CLOCK. Q ALL RIGHT. WELL, LET ME -- MR. COCHRAN: WELL, IF I MIGHT APPROACH, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: SURE. MR. COCHRAN: REFERRING TO PAGE 1371. Q BY MR. COCHRAN: I'M JUST GOING TO ASK YOU JUST TO REVIEW A CERTAIN PORTION OF THE REPORT TO SEE IF IT MIGHT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION. WILL YOU READ THIS FIRST PART TO YOURSELF? WHY DON'T YOU READ FROM HERE TO HERE, JUST READ THAT PART (INDICATING). THANK YOU. A (THE WITNESS COMPLIES). Q YOU READ THAT NOW? A YES. Q AND DOES THAT TEND TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION THAT YOU INDICATED TO THE POLICE THAT YOU RETIRED TO THE UPSTAIRS BEDROOM AND WENT TO SLEEP BETWEEN 10:45 AND 10:00 O'CLOCK P.M. ON JUNE 12TH? A IT DOES NOT REFRESH MY MEMORY ABOUT THE EXACT WORDS THAT I USED. Q ALL RIGHT. YOU -- IT DOES NOT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION? A OF THE EXACT WORDS THAT I USED. Q OKAY. BUT -- THE COURT: EXCUSE ME, COUNSEL. DID YOU MISSPEAK YOURSELF WHEN YOU SAID BETWEEN 10:45 AND 10:00 O'CLOCK? MR. COCHRAN: I'M SORRY. I PERHAPS DID, YOUR HONOR. I INTENDED TO SAY BETWEEN 9:45 -- THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR -- AND 10:00 O'CLOCK P.M. ON JUNE 12TH. Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AT ALL? A I REMEMBER SAYING THAT I WENT TO SLEEP APPROXIMATELY 10:00 O'CLOCK. I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT WORDS THAT I USED. Q OKAY. SO ABOUT 10:00 O'CLOCK WOULD BE ACCURATE? A YES. Q OKAY. AND WHEN YOU WENT TO SLEEP, YOU DIDN'T HEAR ANY DOGS BARKING AT THAT POINT, DID YOU? A NO. Q OKAY. NOW, DID YOU THEN TELL THE POLICE OFFICERS THAT SOMETIME BETWEEN 10:15 P.M. AND 10:45 P.M., YOU WERE AWAKENED BY WHAT YOU DESCRIBED AS, QUOTE, INTENSE BARKING BY A, QUOTE, A FEW DOGS? A YES. Q ALL RIGHT. AND THAT'S WHAT YOU TOLD THEM, ISN'T IT? A YES. Q AND AT SOME TIME BETWEEN 10:15 AND 10:45, YOU WERE AWAKENED BY THIS INTENSE BARKING BY A FEW DOGS, RIGHT? A YES. Q ALL RIGHT. AND YOU WENT ON TO TELL THE POLICE, DID YOU NOT, THAT YOU HAD NEVER HEARD THIS MUCH BARKING OF DOGS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD BEFORE THAT PARTICULAR NIGHT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q IS THAT CORRECT? ALL RIGHT. THAT AFTER YOU WERE AWAKENED, YOUR FIANCE', MR. KARPF RETURNED TO THE RESIDENCE APPROXIMATELY 30 TO 45 MINUTES AFTER YOU WERE AWAKENED BY THESE BARKING DOGS. A CORRECT. Q IS THAT CORRECT? A YES, IT IS. Q ALL RIGHT. HE CAME UPSTAIRS AND CHANGED AND HE WENT TO BED ULTIMATELY; IS THAT RIGHT? A YES. Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, AT ANY TIME THAT EVENING, DID YOU HEAR ANY SCREAMS OR ANY SOUNDS ANYWHERE IN THAT AREA? A NO. Q YOU NEVER HEARD ANY SCREAMS OR ANY SOUNDS OR ANYTHING? A NO. Q AND THESE DOGS THAT YOU HEARD BARKING, IT'S YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION THAT THE SOUND OF THESE DOGS BARKING CAME SOMEWHERE SOUTH OF YOUR LOCATION NEAR THE INTERSECTION OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES, THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND -- MR. COCHRAN: CAN I HAVE A SECOND, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: SURE. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND MR. FAIRTLOUGH.) Q BY MR. COCHRAN: AND THE AREA HERE -- YOU CAN SEE THAT ON YOUR MONITOR, CAN YOU? WHERE THAT CIRCLE IS, THAT IS WHERE, THE GENERAL AREA WHERE YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS THE BARKING DOG; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES, THE GENERAL AREA. Q AND IF YOU COULD TELL FROM THAT LOCATION, IF YOU COULD TELL, IS DOROTHY SOMEWHERE RIGHT AROUND IN THIS AREA (INDICATING)? IS THAT NEAR THE END OF THE STREET? A YES. Q ALL RIGHT. AND THAT'S ABOUT THE LOCATION AS YOU UNDERSTOOD IT? A YES. Q NOW, WHEN YOU HEARD THESE BARKING DOGS, THE INTENSE BARKING DOGS, YOU NEVER GOT UP AND LOOKED OUT THE WINDOW; IS THAT CORRECT? A NO, I DID NOT. Q AND YOU NEVER SAW ANY OF THESE DOGS? A NO. Q YOU HAVE HEARD DOGS BARKING IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD BEFORE, BUT NOT TO THIS INTENSITY; IS THAT CORRECT? A RIGHT. Q ALL RIGHT. DO YOU KNOW ABOUT WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT YOU BECAME AWARE THERE WAS SOME ACTIVITY IN THE ALLEYWAY BEHIND YOUR RESIDENCE? DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME IT WAS? A YOU MEAN AS FAR AS THE POLICE COMING THERE? Q YES, AS FAR AS THE POLICE. A I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT TIME. I KNOW THAT IT WAS AFTER MIDNIGHT, BUT I DO NOT KNOW THE EXACT TIME. Q ALL RIGHT. SOMETIME AFTER MIDNIGHT; IS THAT CORRECT? DID YOU GET UP AND GO LOOK OUTSIDE? A YES, I DID. Q YOU SAW POLICE CARS OUT THERE? A I SAW POLICE CAR DOWNSTAIRS, RIGHT. Q DID YOU SEE ANY OTHER CARS OTHER THAN THE POLICE CAR? A NO. JUST THE POLICE CARS. Q AND YOU DIDN'T -- A ACTUALLY ONE POLICE CAR. Q ONE POLICE CAR? AND YOU DIDN'T TALK TO THE POLICE THAT NIGHT, DID YOU? A NO. Q DID THEY COME AND TRY TO TALK TO YOU THE NEXT MORNING AT ALL? A NO. Q ALL RIGHT. SO IT WASN'T UNTIL NOVEMBER THAT YOU SPEAK TO THE POLICE; IS THAT RIGHT? A RIGHT. Q THAT'S WHEN LANGE AND VANNATTER CAME OUT TO TALK TO YOU AT YOUR PLACE OF BUSINESS; IS THAT RIGHT? A THAT'S RIGHT. Q AS BEST YOU CAN TELL, MR. KARPF CAME HOME FROM THIS TRIP TO SAN JOSE SOMETIME BETWEEN 10:50 P.M. AND 11:00 O'CLOCK P.M.; ISN'T THAT CORRECT? A I ASKED MR. KARPF WHAT TIME HE GOT HOME AFTER WE FOUND OUT ABOUT THE INCIDENT. Q YES, MA'AM. A AND HE SAID THAT HE CAME HOME ABOUT QUARTER TO 11:00 IS WHAT HE TOLD ME. Q SO ABOUT 10:45 IS YOUR BEST THOUGHT? A YES, ACCORDING TO WHAT HE TOLD ME. Q AND THAT WAS DURING THE TIME THAT YOU HAD BEEN SLEEPING; IS THAT CORRECT? MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY. MR. COCHRAN: I'M ASKING, I'M NOT MISSTATING THE TESTIMONY. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: WELL, BY THE TIME HE CAME OVER, I WAS ALREADY AWAKE. Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. SO IF YOU SLEPT BETWEEN 10:15 AND 10:45 AND WERE AWAKENED BY THE BARKING DOGS AT 10:45, RIGHT, YOU WERE ALREADY AWAKE, RIGHT? A I WAS AWAKE WHEN HE GOT HOME. Q AND HAVE YOU SEEN THIS STATEMENT TO THE POLICE ABOUT WHAT TIME HE ARRIVED HOME? A NO. Q BUT IT IS YOUR RECOLLECTION THAT YOU WERE AWAKE BY THE TIME HE ACTUALLY GOT IN? A I WAS DEFINITELY AWAKE BY THE TIME HE WAS HOME. I HAD BEEN AWAKE FOR SOME TIME. Q HOW LONG? A IT SEEMED APPROXIMATELY A HALF AN HOUR. Q SO COULD HE HAVE GOTTEN HOME LATER, PERHAPS 11:15? A I DON'T THINK SO. Q YOU DIDN'T LOOK AT A CLOCK HOWEVER? A THE ONLY TIME I LOOKED AT A CLOCK IS RIGHT BEFORE I WENT TO SLEEP. Q AND THAT WAS AT WHAT TIME? A THAT WAS A FEW MINUTES BEFORE 10:00 O'CLOCK. Q ALL RIGHT. AND THAT WAS THE ONLY TIME YOU LOOKED AT IT? A THAT WAS THE ONLY TIME. MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. THANK YOU VERY KINDLY. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: MISS CLARK, DO YOU HAVE ANY REDIRECT? MS. CLARK: JUST VERY BRIEFLY. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK: Q SO YOUR MOST ACCURATE STATEMENT OF TIME IS THAT YOU WERE AWAKE FOR HALF AN HOUR BY THE TIME LOUIS CAME HOME? A YES, APPROXIMATELY HALF AN HOUR. Q IT FELT LIKE THAT? A IT FELT LIKE THAT. Q AND YOU FEEL CERTAIN OF THAT? A IT JUST FELT LIKE ABOUT HALF AN HOUR. Q OKAY. AND WHEN HE CAME HOME, THAT WAS HALF AN HOUR AFTER YOU HEARD THE DOG START BARKING? A YES. Q AND THEN YOU LEARNED THAT HE CAME HOME AT 10:45 APPROXIMATELY? A YES. MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. THE COURT: OVERRULED. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: NOTHING FURTHER. THE COURT: RECROSS. MR. COCHRAN: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. THIS LADY MAY BE EXCUSED. THE COURT: MA'AM, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR COMING IN. PLEASE DON'T DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANY OTHER PERSON UNTIL AFTER THE CASE IS OVER. HOWEVER, YOU MAY DISCUSS IT FURTHER WITH THE ATTORNEYS. ALL RIGHT? THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. THE COURT: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, LET ME ASK YOU A QUICK QUESTION. ON THE TWO HARD COPY PRINTOUTS OF THE ITEMS THAT WERE CIRCLED, DO YOU HAVE ONE OR TWO? MR. FAIRTLOUGH: WE HAVE TWO. THE COURT: 38-A WILL BE THE CROSS BY THE -- UP BY THE WINDOWS I BELIEVE AND THEN 38-B WILL BE THE CIRCLE DOWN BY THE END OF THE ALLEY. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. (PEO'S 38-A AND 38-B FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPHS) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. BAILEY, YOU HAVE A COMMENT ON THAT? MR. BAILEY: I DO, YOUR HONOR. I THINK THERE WILL BE QUITE A VOLUME OF THESE. I SUGGESTED TO MR. FAIRTLOUGH THAT WE MIGHT PUT THE NAME OF THE WITNESS WHO IS TESTIFYING WHEN THE PRINTOUT IS MADE FOR LATER SORTING OUT BY THE JURY. THE COURT: THAT'S A GOOD IDEA. THANK YOU. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, COUNSEL. I'LL WRITE IT ON NOW. THE COURT: MR. CLARK, MR. DARDEN, YOUR NEXT WITNESS. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. PEOPLE CALL LOUIS KARPF. THE COURT: MADAM REPORTER, HOW'S YOUR PAPER SUPPLY? THE COURT REPORTER: FINE. THE COURT: HOW DOES 10:30 SOUND? THE COURT REPORTER: THAT'S FINE. THE COURT: MR. KARPF, STEP OVER HERE, PLEASE, BY THE COURT REPORTER. WHY DON'T YOU FACE THE CLERK. LOUIS KARPF, CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE, WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: THE CLERK: RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND, PLEASE. YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU MAY GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT, SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD? THE WITNESS: YES, I DO. THE CLERK: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT IN THE WITNESS STAND AND STATE AND SPELL YOUR FIRST AND LAST NAMES FOR THE RECORD. THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS LOUIS KARPF, THAT'S L-O-U-I-S K-A-R-P-F. THE COURT: MISS CLARK, DON'T TRIP OVER THE BAG THERE. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. RIGHT HERE. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK: Q GOOD MORNING, MR. KARPF. A GOOD MORNING. Q SIR, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE DATE OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994, AS OF THAT DATE, SIR, WHERE WERE YOU LIVING? A I WAS LIVING AT 873 SOUTH BUNDY DRIVE. Q AND WHERE WOULD THAT BE IN RELATION TO 875 SOUTH BUNDY? A THAT IS THE NEXT CONDOMINIUM NORTH OF THAT UNIT. Q SO 875 SOUTH BUNDY WOULD BE JUST SOUTH OF YOU? A JUST SOUTH OF ME. Q RIGHT NEXT DOOR? A RIGHT NEXT DOOR. Q I ASK YOU TO TURN AND LOOK AT THE EXHIBIT THAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 26 AND TAKE THE POINTER, AND JUST TO ORIENTATE YOU, IF THIS RED SQUARE HERE WAS 875 SOUTH BUNDY, WHAT WOULD THAT BLUE SQUARE BE (INDICATING)? A IT WOULD BE THE UNIT THAT I LIVED IN. Q 873 SOUTH BUNDY? A THAT'S CORRECT. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. JUROR 1492, COULD YOU HEAR THAT ANSWER? JUROR NO. 1492: YES. THE COURT: THANK YOU. Q BY MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO ASK YOU, SIR, TO LOOK AT THE MONITOR TO YOUR RIGHT. LOOK DOWN. THERE YOU GO. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE LOCATION THAT'S SHOWN THERE IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH? A YES, I DO. Q YOU SEE THAT MOVING CROSS? A YES. Q FIRST OF ALL, I'M GOING TO SHOW WITH THE CROSS -- MS. CLARK: JONATHAN, COULD YOU PUT IT ON THE JEEP? THANK YOU. Q BY MS. CLARK: IF THAT CROSS IS NOW AT A JEEP THAT'S PARKED AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY, COULD YOU PLEASE TELL THE JURY WHERE YOUR UNIT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN RELATION TO THAT? A JUST NORTH OF THAT. Q WOULD THAT BE WHERE IT'S INDICATED WITH A CROSS? A THAT IS CORRECT. Q THANK YOU. MS. CLARK: CAN YOU PRINT -- THE COURT: NOW AN X. MS. CLARK: NOW AN X. AND I THINK -- WE ARE GOING TO PUT THE INITIALS OF THE -- EXCUSE ME, COUNSEL. I'M SORRY? (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.) MS. CLARK: CAN WE PUT AN LK AT THE TOP OF THE VERY, VERY, VERY TOP IN THE CENTER OR -- THAT'S FINE. THANK YOU, JOHN. Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. NOW, DO YOU HAVE AN ENTRANCE THAT OPENS OUT ONTO THAT ALLEY, SIR? A MY GARAGE OPENS OUT INTO THE ALLEY. Q DO YOU USE THAT GARAGE TO GO IN AND OUT OF YOUR APARTMENT? A YES, I DO. Q AND AS OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994, SIR, HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN LIVING THERE? A IT WOULD BE ABOUT FOUR AND A HALF YEARS. Q DID YOU EVER KNOW WHO WAS LIVING AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY IN JUNE OF 1994? A YES, I DID. Q AND WHO WAS THAT? A NICOLE SIMPSON BROWN. Q AND DID YOU KNOW SHE HAD A DOG? A I HEARD IT ON OCCASION. NEVER SAW IT. Q YOU OCCASIONALLY HEARD IT BARKING? A YES. Q ON THE DATE OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994, SIR, WERE YOU IN YOUR -- WERE YOU IN LOS ANGELES? A NO, I WASN'T. Q WHERE WERE YOU? A I WAS IN SAN JOSE. Q DID YOU RETURN SOMETIME THAT NIGHT? A YES, I DID. Q ABOUT WHAT TIME? A I GOT HOME APPROXIMATELY QUARTER TO 11:00 AT NIGHT. Q WHAT -- WELL, HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? A WELL, I KNOW WHAT TIME MY FLIGHT APPROXIMATELY TOOK OFF, AND THAT WAS LATE, AND I'M AWARE OF THE TIME WHEN I -- YOU KNOW, I WAS IN A HURRY TO GET HOME, SO I KNOW IT WAS LATE. I SHOULD HAVE BEEN HOME AT LEAST A HALF HOUR EARLIER. Q SO WHAT TIME DID YOUR FLIGHT LAND? A IT LANDED APPROXIMATELY 10:00 P.M. Q AND SO -- DO YOU TAKE THAT FLIGHT OFTEN FROM SAN JOSE TO LOS ANGELES? A I WOULD SAY TWO TO FOUR TIMES A YEAR. Q OKAY. DO YOU DO A LOT OF FLYING? A NOT EXCESSIVELY. Q HAVE YOU LANDED AT LAX BEFORE? A MANY TIMES. Q AND HAVE YOU DRIVEN FROM THE LAX PARKING LOT TO YOUR HOME ON BUNDY MANY TIMES? A YES, I HAVE. Q AND ARE YOU VERY FAMILIAR WITH HOW LONG IT TAKES YOU TO GET TO THE AIRPORT PARKING LOT AND FROM THERE TO YOUR HOME? A YES, I AM. Q SO YOUR FLIGHT LANDED AT 10:00 O'CLOCK THAT NIGHT? A YES. Q AND THEN YOU GOT TO THE AIRPORT PARKING LOT ABOUT WHAT TIME? A I WOULD SAY NO LATER THAN 10:15. Q AND FROM THERE, YOU HAD TO DRIVE HOME? A YES. Q AND THAT TAKES YOU HOW LONG? A 20 MINUTES TO HALF HOUR MAXIMUM. Q AND SO THAT NIGHT, HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO GET HOME FROM THE AIRPORT PARKING LOT AT 10:15? A I WOULD SAY WITHIN THAT PERIOD OF 20 MINUTES TO HALF HOUR. Q SO YOU GOT HOME NO LATER THAN 10:45? A NO LATER. Q WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU GOT HOME, SIR? A FIRST THING I DID, I WENT OUT TO RETRIEVE MY MAIL, WHICH IS OUT TOWARDS BUNDY. Q LET ME BACK UP FOR A MINUTE. I WANTED TO ASK YOU SOMETHING. IN YOUR -- IN THAT UNIT, SIR, WHEN YOU COME IN, DID YOU GO IN THROUGH THE GARAGE? A YES, I DID. Q AND DOES THAT GARAGE DOOR KIND OF SQUEAK? A IT'S NOISY. IT RATTLES AND SHAKES THE UNIT A LITTLE BIT. Q AND WHEN YOU OPEN THE DOOR THAT LEADS INTO THE ACTUAL UNIT ITSELF, IS THERE A NOISE THAT YOUR ALARM GIVES OFF TO INDICATE IT -- A YES. I HAVE IT SET SO IT BEEPS SO WHEN THE DOOR OPENS, SOMEONE KNOWS SOMEONE'S COMING. Q SO IT BEEPS? A YES, IT DID. Q SO SOMEONE INSIDE CAN HEAR SOMEONE ENTER? A DEFINITELY. Q AND YOU WENT IN THROUGH THAT PARTICULAR ENTRANCE THAT NIGHT? A YES, I DID. Q OKAY. THEN WHAT DID YOU DO? A AS I WENT OUT TO MY MAILBOX, WHICH IS IN THE FRONT OF THE CONDO COMPLEX AND AT THAT POINT, I WAS -- NOTICED A DOG BARKING QUITE PROFUSELY. Q WHEN YOU SAY "THE FRONT," WOULD THAT BE ON THE STREET OF BUNDY ITSELF? A YES. IT FACES THE STREET OF BUNDY. Q AND WHERE EXACTLY WERE YOU WHEN YOU SAW THIS DOG? A WELL, I HAD REACHED MY MAILBOX AT THAT POINT, WHICH IS MAYBE 10 FEET FROM THE CURB, AND I SAW A DOG IN THE STREET COMING AT ME BARKING VERY PROFUSELY. Q NOW, AFTER THAT NIGHT, DID YOU SEE THAT DOG ON NEWSCASTS AND TELEVISION? A YES. SUBSEQUENTLY, I DID SEE IT, YES. Q AND DID YOU RECOGNIZE THE DOG YOU SAW ON TELEVISION AS THE ONE YOU HAD SEEN THAT NIGHT BARKING IN THE STREET ON BUNDY? A YES, I DID. MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE HERE A BOARD. I SHOWED IT TO COUNSEL YESTERDAY. I WOULD ASK THAT IT BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 40. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 40. (PEO'S 40 FOR ID = POSTERBOARD/3 PHOTOS) MS. CLARK: THANK YOU. Q BY MS. CLARK: YOU SEE THE DOG DEPICTED IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT HAVE BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 40? A YES, I DO. Q AND DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE DOG THAT IS SHOWN TO YOU THERE? A I WOULD SAY THAT'S THE SAME DOG. Q THE SAME DOG THAT YOU SAW BARKING IN THE STREET ON BUNDY ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH AT APPROXIMATELY 10:45? A THAT IS CORRECT. MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY, 1045. HE'S NOT CLEAR WHAT TIME IT IS, AT WHAT POINT HE WENT TO THE MAILBOX. THE COURT: APPROXIMATELY. THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID, APPROXIMATELY. OVERRULED. JUST SO THE RECORD IS CLEAR, PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 40 IS A BOARD THAT APPEARS TO CONTAIN FOUR PHOTOGRAPHS, THREE OF WHICH ARE A DOG AND THE FOURTH APPEARS TO BE A -- WHAT IS IT, COLLAR? MS. CLARK: COLLAR. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q BY MS. CLARK: YES, SIR. YOU GOT HOME AT 10:45. DID YOU GO DIRECTLY INTO YOUR APARTMENT AND OUT TO THE STREET TO GET TO YOUR MAIL? A YES, I DID. Q SO 10:45 OR -47, YOU SAW THE DOG? A I WOULD SAY THAT'S PRETTY ACCURATE. Q AND WHERE IN THE STREET WAS THE DOG WHEN YOU SAW IT? A AT THAT POINT, IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET JUST RUNNING OR WALKING AIMLESSLY. Q AND BARKING? A BARKING VERY LOUDLY. Q AND WHAT DID IT DO WHEN YOU APPROACHED YOUR MAIL BOX? A IT STARTED TO APPROACH ME, WHICH IT DID SCARE ME. SO I ACTUALLY RETREATED BACK INSIDE MY GATE UNTIL IT MOVED ON. Q WHEN YOU RETREATED BACK INSIDE YOUR GATE, WHAT DID IT DO? A AFTER THAT, A FEW, MAYBE 20 SECONDS OR SO, IT STARTED BACK INTO THE STREET WALKING UP TOWARDS MONTANA. Q WHEN YOU SAW THAT DOG, DID YOU HAPPEN TO SEE ANYBODY ELSE IN THE STREET? A YES. I SAW SOMEBODY WALKING ACROSS THE STREET WITH A DOG ALSO HEADING NORTH. Q WAS IT A COUPLE OF PEOPLE OR WAS IT ONE PERSON? A ONE PERSON. I BELIEVE IT WAS A MAN. Q A MAN. A UH-HUH. Q IS THAT YES? A YES. Q SO IN WHAT DIRECTION DID YOU SEE THE DOG, THE AKITA GO -- EXCUSE ME -- THE DOG GO? A THE DOG WAS HEADING NORTH TOWARDS MONTANA. Q WHEN YOU WERE OUTSIDE IN FRONT OF YOUR -- IN FRONT OF YOUR APARTMENT UNIT, YOU SAW THE DOG, DID YOU LOOK AROUND TO SEE WHAT WAS CAUSING THE DOG TO BARK? A NO, I DIDN'T. Q CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE LIGHTING IN THAT FRONT AREA ON YOUR STREET? A THE LIGHTING IS NOT -- IT'S NOT GREAT. WE HAVE LIGHTS IN FRONT OF OUR PLACE WHICH ILLUMINATE THE FRONT PART OF OUR UNIT. THERE'S A STREETLIGHT JUST MAYBE 30 FEET TO THE SOUTH, BUT BASICALLY IT'S FAIRLY DARK. Q AND THE APARTMENT OR THE CONDOMINIUM TO YOUR -- THAT'S JUST SOUTH OF YOU, 875 SOUTH BUNDY, WAS IT DARK IN FRONT OF THAT UNIT AS WELL? A YES, IT WAS. Q AT SOME POINT AFTER YOU GOT HOME, DO YOU RECALL HEARING THE ACTIVITY OF POLICE ARRIVING TO THE LOCATION? A YES, I DID. Q DO YOU RECALL APPROXIMATELY WHEN THAT WAS? A I BELIEVE IT WAS ABOUT 1:00 A.M. Q AT 1:00 A.M., WHAT MADE YOU THINK THAT IT WAS THE POLICE THAT WERE THERE? A WELL, I LOOKED OUT OF MY WINDOW. Q YOU SAW THEM THERE. A RIGHT. Q DO YOU KNOW IF THAT'S ACTUALLY WHEN THEY ARRIVED OR IS THAT JUST WHEN YOU NOTICED THEM? A NO. SINCE I LIVE IN THE BACK OF THE UNIT, OF HER UNIT, THAT WOULD BE -- THAT'S WHEN I STARTED HEARING A LOT OF NOISE. Q WHEN YOU SAY YOU LIVE IN THE BACK OF THE UNIT, DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOUR UNIT DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS TO BUNDY? A NO, IT DOESN'T. Q SO YOUR UNIT FACES THE ALLEY AND THAT'S YOUR EXIT AND ENTRANCE? A WELL, I HAVE TWO ENTRANCES. I CAN COME THROUGH THE FRONT, BUT I ENTER, SINCE I DRIVE IN, FROM THE ALLEY. Q THE FRONT PART OF THAT UNIT THAT FACES BUNDY, IS THAT ALSO PART OF YOUR UNIT? A NO, IT'S NOT. Q THAT BELONGS TO SOMEONE ELSE? A YES, IT DOES. Q SO DID YOUR UNIT HAVE ANY WINDOWS THAT FACE OUT ONTO BUNDY? A NO, IT DOESN'T. Q HOW MANY DOGS DID YOU SEE BARKING THAT NIGHT? A ONE. Q THE ONE YOU'VE DESCRIBED? A YES. Q AND YOU INDICATED -- I BELIEVE YOU INDICATED THAT YOU HAD HEARD -- WITHDRAW THAT. HAD YOU HEARD DOGS BARKING IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD BEFORE? A ON OCCASION, YES. Q HAD YOU EVER HEARD A DOG BARKING THE WAY YOU HEARD THIS ONE BARKING ON THAT NIGHT? A I WOULD SAY NO. Q DID YOU KNOW WHO WAS LIVING NEXT DOOR TO YOU AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY, SIR? A YES -- THE COURT: YOU ASKED THAT QUESTION. MS. CLARK: I DID? THE COURT: YES. MS. CLARK: I AM SORRY. I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. THANK YOU. THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN. MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN: Q GOOD MORNING, MR. KARPF. A GOOD MORNING, MR. COCHRAN. Q JUST A FEW QUESTIONS IF I MIGHT. SIR, WITH REGARD TO THE TRIP THAT YOU TOOK TO SAN JOSE, YOU RETURNED SUNDAY EVENING AND YOU RECALL THAT YOU RETURNED ABOUT 10:00 O'CLOCK IN THE EVENING? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND ON WHAT AIRLINE WERE YOU TRAVELING, DO YOU RECALL? A SOUTHWEST. Q AND WAS THE FLIGHT DUE IN AT 10:00 O'CLOCK OR JUST HAPPENED TO GET IN AT 10:00 O'CLOCK? A I THINK IT WAS DUE IN AT ABOUT 9:30. Q SO IT WAS LATE, ABOUT HALF AN HOUR? A YES. Q AND HAD YOU CHECKED ANY LUGGAGE? A NO, I DIDN'T. Q AND SO YOU HAD CARRY-ON? A CORRECT. Q AND WITH REGARD TO ARRIVING ABOUT 10:00 O'CLOCK, AFTER YOU RETRIEVED YOUR CARRY-ON LUGGAGE, WHERE WERE YOU -- HOW DID YOU GET HOME? DID YOU HAVE YOUR CAR PARKED THERE SOMEWHERE? A I HAD A CAR. Q AND WHERE WAS THE CAR PARKED? A IT WAS PARKED RIGHT NEXT TO THE TERMINAL. I THINK IT'S CALLED PARK ONE. Q ALL RIGHT. SO TERMINAL ONE IS WHERE SOUTHWEST IS? A RIGHT. Q AND THEN YOU WOULD PARK IN THAT NEW PARKING AREA THERE, PARK ONE? A THAT'S CORRECT. WALKED RIGHT TO IT. Q AND THEN YOU WALKED ACROSS, GOT YOUR CAR; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT IS CORRECT. Q AND YOU THEN HEADED HOME TO THE 873 BUNDY ADDRESS; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q NOW, DO YOU RECALL SPEAKING WITH TWO OFFICERS, OFFICER R.O. HARO, H-A-R-O, AND J.A. HARPER IN CONNECTION WITH THIS MATTER BACK ON JULY 7, 1994 ABOUT 4:00 O'CLOCK IN THE AFTERNOON? A I DON'T REMEMBER THEIR NAMES, BUT I DID SPEAK TO TWO OFFICERS. Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHERE DID YOU TALK TO THEM, SIR, IF YOU RECALL? A THEY CAME TO MY BUSINESS, PLACE OF BUSINESS. Q AND THAT WAS SOMEWHERE DOWNTOWN L.A.? A YES, IT WAS. Q AND YOU TALKED TO THEM ABOUT THE EVENTS AND YOUR INVOLVEMENT IN THOSE EVENTS OF THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12TH, 1994; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND SPECIFICALLY, DO YOU RECALL TELLING OFFICERS HARO AND HARPER THAT MR. KARPF INDICATED THAT HE ARRIVED HOME FROM LAX AIRPORT (SAN JOSE) AT APPROXIMATELY 2250 TO 2300 HOURS, THAT IS 10:50 TO 11:00 O'CLOCK? DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING THEM THAT? A I MIGHT HAVE SAID IN THAT APPROXIMATE TIME, YES. Q AND THAT WOULD BE FAIRLY ACCURATE; WOULD IT NOT BE? A WITHIN 10 MINUTES EITHER SIDE, YES. MAYBE FIVE MINUTES. Q FIVE OR 10 MINUTES. MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? Q BY MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU THE REPORT AND ASK YOU TO READ THIS. AND I'LL ASK YOU READ IT TO YOURSELF FIRST, MR. KARPF. WHY DON'T YOU JUST READ FROM HERE TO THERE FIRST. A (THE WITNESS COMPLIES). Q ALL RIGHT. HAVE YOU NOW READ THAT? A YES, I HAVE. Q AND DOES THAT TEND TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION THAT YOU DID IN FACT TELL THESE OFFICERS THAT YOU HAD -- MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THERE'S BEEN NO INDICATION THIS WITNESS NEEDS HIS MEMORY REFRESHED. MR. COCHRAN: MAY I FINISH THE QUESTION? THE COURT: YOU MAY. Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DOES THE REVIEW OF THE REPORT THAT I JUST PROVIDED TO YOU IN ANY WAY REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION THAT YOU TOLD THE OFFICERS THAT YOU ARRIVED HOME FROM LAX AIRPORT AT APPROXIMATELY 10:50 TO 11:00 O'CLOCK P.M.? A I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY 10 -- YOU KNOW, WITHIN FIVE MINUTES EITHER SIDE, YES. Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO THE OFFICERS, YOU WERE TRYING TO BE AS ACCURATE AS YOU COULD, WEREN'T YOU? A YES. Q AND YOU HAD NO REASON TO NOT TO BE ACCURATE IN TELLING THEM THAT, WOULD YOU? A NO. Q AND WHEN YOU WOULD TALK TO THEM, YOU SAW THEM WRITE DOWN WHAT YOU WERE SAYING; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES, I DID. Q YOU TOLD THEM YOU HAD BEEN TO SAN JOSE AND THEY WROTE THAT DOWN; IS THAT RIGHT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, AFTER YOU ARRIVED HOME, YOU DESCRIBED HOW YOU CAME -- YOU COME IN THE REAR, THAT REAR ALLEYWAY THERE THAT PARALLELS BUNDY; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q YOU THEN CAME IN THE GARAGE. DID YOU GO INTO THE HOUSE AT ALL BEFORE YOU WENT TO YOUR MAILBOX, IF YOU RECALL? A WELL, I HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE HOUSE TO GET TO THE MAILBOX. Q ALL RIGHT. SO YOU COME IN THE GARAGE, THEN YOU UNLOCK THE DOOR AND I PRESUME THEN YOU GO IN THE HOUSE? A YES. Q AND THEN YOU PUT YOUR LUGGAGE DOWN, THAT SORT OF THING? A I WOULD JUST DROP IT ON THE FLOOR. Q DROP IT. AND THEN YOUR FIRST GOAL WAS THEN TO GET OUT AND TRY TO GET YOUR MAIL; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT'S WHAT I DID. Q OKAY. AND THEN SO YOU GO THROUGH THE HOUSE TOWARD BUNDY TO GO AND TRY TO FIND YOUR MAIL; IS THAT RIGHT? A CORRECT. Q AND IT WAS AT THAT POINT -- WOULD YOU SAY THAT WOULD BE WITHIN THREE TO FIVE MINUTES OF YOUR ARRIVAL IN THE GARAGE THAT YOU WENT OUT TO YOUR MAILBOX? A I THINK THREE MINUTES WOULD BE ACCURATE. Q THREE MINUTES? OKAY. SO YOU GOT HOME AT 10:50 OR 11:00 O'CLOCK. SO WITHIN THREE MINUTES OF THAT OR WHATEVER TIME IT WAS, YOU THEN WENT OUT TO YOUR MAILBOX; IS THAT RIGHT? A THAT WOULD BE CORRECT. Q AND AT THAT POINT, THAT'S WHEN YOU SAW THIS DOG THAT YOU BELIEVED IS THE DOG DEPICTED ON PEOPLE'S 40 THERE; IS THAT CORRECT, SIR? A THAT IS CORRECT. Q AND AT THE TIME YOU SAW THAT DOG, YOU HAD NEVER SEEN THAT DOG BEFORE; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT IS CORRECT. Q AT SOME POINT, EVEN THOUGH YOU RETREATED BACK INSIDE YOUR GATE, YOU WERE ABLE TO GET YOUR MAIL AT SOME POINT; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES, I DID. Q AND DID YOU EVER HAVE OCCASION TO LOOK TO YOUR RIGHT IN THE GENERAL DIRECTION OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY? DID YOU LOOK IN THAT GENERAL DIRECTION AT ALL? A I DON'T THINK I DID, NO. Q ALL RIGHT. SO YOU HAVE NO RECOLLECTION OF -- WELL, YOU DON'T THINK YOU DID ACTUALLY LOOK TO YOUR RIGHT? A IF I DID, I WOULDN'T SEE ANYTHING ANYWAY. Q ALL RIGHT. SO FROM YOUR VANTAGE POINT, YOU COULDN'T SEE ANYTHING; IS THAT RIGHT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q ANSWER OUT LOUD. AND THE DOG WAS OUT IN THE CENTER OF THE STREET; IS THAT CORRECT? A IN THE CENTER, RIGHT. Q NOW, SIR, WITH REGARD TO THIS OTHER INDIVIDUAL THAT YOU SAW, YOU INDICATED I BELIEVE THAT YOU SAW ANOTHER MALE WHO WAS ACROSS THE STREET. THAT WOULD BE THEN ON THE EAST SIDE OF BUNDY; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT IS CORRECT. Q AND IN WHICH DIRECTION WAS THIS MALE THAT WAS WALKING THE DOG HEADED? A HE WAS HEADED NORTH. Q SO HE WAS HEADED ON THE EAST SIDE HEADED NORTH? A WHICH WOULD GO TOWARDS MONTANA. Q TOWARDS MONTANA; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q WAS THAT SOMEONE THAT YOU KNEW? A NO. Q WAS THAT SOMEONE YOU HAD EVER SEEN BEFORE? A IT'S HARD TO SAY. IT WAS DARK, YOU KNOW, THAT SIDE OF THE STREET. Q ALL RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND, SIR. HAVE YOU SEEN THAT PERSON SINCE THAT TIME, THIS MALE? A NOT THAT I NOTICED. Q HAVE YOU SEEN THE DOG IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD SINCE THAT TIME? A I DON'T THINK SO. Q ALL RIGHT. CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US THE INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS WALKING THE DOG AS HE PROCEEDED NORTHBOUND ON BUNDY APPROACHING MONTANA ON THE EAST SIDE OF THE STREET? A I REALLY CAN'T DESCRIBE HIM. HE WAS A MALE CAUCASIAN. Q MALE CAUCASIAN. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TALL HE WAS OR HOW MUCH HE WEIGHED? A NO. Q YOU HAVE NO RECOLLECTION HOW HE WAS DRESSED? A NO. Q CAN YOU IN ANY WAY DESCRIBE THE DOG AT ALL? A NO, I CAN'T. Q WAS HIS DOG ON A LEASH? A IT WAS ON A LEASH. Q WITH REGARD TO THE DOG THAT YOU BELIEVED WAS THE DOG DEPICTED IN PEOPLE'S 40 THERE, DID THAT DOG HAVE A LEASH ON THAT NIGHT IF YOU RECALL? A I BELIEVE HE DID. Q YOUR RECOLLECTION IS, HE HAD A LEASH? A YES. Q ALL RIGHT. AND AS YOU SAW THE DOG RUNNING IN THE STREET WITH THIS LEASH, THE ONLY OTHER PERSON THAT YOU EVER SAW WAS THIS MAN, MALE CAUCASIAN, ACROSS THE STREET WALKING THE DOG; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT IS CORRECT. Q WHEN YOU CAME BACK INSIDE YOUR HOUSE, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO GO BACK OUT IN THAT ALLEYWAY AT ALL? A NO, I DIDN'T. Q WHEN YOU DROVE UP -- AND AS I UNDERSTAND -- MR. COCHRAN: CAN WE HAVE -- MAY I HAVE JUST A SECOND, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: CERTAINLY. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.) Q BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, YOU CAN WATCH YOUR MONITOR IF YOU -- THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 38 AGAIN? MR. COCHRAN: PEOPLE'S 38 I BELIEVE. IS THAT PEOPLE'S 38? MS. CLARK: 38. MR. COCHRAN: 38. THANK YOU. Q BY MR. COCHRAN: MR. KARPF, SIR, WITH REGARD TO YOUR RETURNING HOME, WOULD I BE CORRECT IN ASSUMING THAT YOU PROCEEDED FROM DOROTHY INTO THIS ALLEYWAY HEADING NORTH TO GO INTO YOUR PARTICULAR RESIDENCE? A THAT IS CORRECT. Q IS THAT CORRECT? AND AS YOU THEN OF NECESSITY IN PROCEEDING NORTHBOUND, YOU PASSED BY 875; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND DID YOU SEE ANY VEHICLES OUT THERE WHEN YOU DROVE PAST AT -- A NOTHING THAT I RECALL. Q -- 10:50 OR 11:00? YOU DON'T RECALL ANYTHING AT ALL? A NO. Q DID YOU SEE ANY OTHER PARTIES IN THAT ALLEY WHEN YOU DROVE IN THERE THAT YOU RECALL AT THIS POINT? A NO. Q YOU -- DID YOU FIRST BECOME AWARE OF THE POLICE AFTER ABOUT 1:00 O'CLOCK THAT PARTICULAR MORNING -- A THAT IS CORRECT. Q -- THE MORNING OF THE 13TH? BUT YOU DID NOT TALK TO THE POLICE AT THAT TIME? A NO, I DIDN'T. Q YOU JUST KNEW THEY WERE OUT THERE? A YES. Q AND YOU DIDN'T TALK TO THE POLICE ACTUALLY IN CONNECTION WITH THIS CASE UNTIL ABOUT JULY 7TH; IS THAT CORRECT? A I WAS INTERVIEWED ON JULY 7TH. Q AND THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME YOU WERE INTERVIEWED? A WHEN I WALKED OUT FRONT THE NEXT MORNING AND GAVE A -- THEY ASKED ME A COUPLE QUESTIONS. Q DID THEY WRITE THAT DOWN? MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. SPECULATION. THE COURT: OVERRULED. HE CAN ANSWER. Q BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU WALKED OUT FRONT THE NEXT MORNING, THAT'S JUNE 13? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND WHO DID YOU TALK TO, IF YOU KNOW? A I DON'T RECALL THE OFFICER'S NAME. Q ALL RIGHT. WAS THIS OFFICER IN UNIFORM OR WAS THIS OFFICER -- A HE WAS IN UNIFORM. Q HE WAS IN UNIFORM? HAVE YOU SEEN THAT OFFICER SINCE THAT TIME? A NO, I HAVEN'T. Q CAN YOU IDENTIFY HIM AT ALL? A NO. Q HE JUST ASKED A FEW QUESTIONS? A JUST A FEW BASIC QUESTIONS. Q LIKE WHAT KIND OF BASIC QUESTIONS? A WHERE I WAS LAST NIGHT. HE WOULDN'T TELL ME WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE CRIME SCENE. SO -- AND THERE WAS NOTHING THAT I EVEN KNEW ABOUT THE CRIME SCENE UNTIL MUCH LATER IN THE DAY. Q ALL RIGHT. YOU JUST HAD A BRIEF CONVERSATION? A VERY BRIEF. Q AND THEN YOUR FIRST FORMAL INTERVIEW THEN WAS ON JULY 7TH, 1994? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q WHEN -- HOW CLOSE DID YOU GET TO THE AKITA THAT PARTICULAR NIGHT? A I WOULD SAY HE CAME WITHIN 15 FEET. Q AND THAT'S WHEN YOU KIND OF RETREATED; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. Q ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU ARRIVED -- WHEN YOU FINALLY GOT INTO THE HOUSE AND UPSTAIRS, I PRESUME IF WE FOLLOW YOUR TRAIL, YOU GOT THE MAIL AND THEN YOU CAME BACK INSIDE; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT IS CORRECT. Q AND DID YOU AT SOME POINT GO UPSTAIRS TO YOUR BEDROOM AREA? A I DID AROUND 12:00 O'CLOCK. Q ALL RIGHT. YOU DIDN'T GO UP UNTIL 12:00 O'CLOCK? A RIGHT. Q HUM. SO WHEN YOU GOT THERE AT 12:00 O'CLOCK -- IN OTHER WORDS, YOU HAD NOT BEEN UP THERE UNTIL 12:00 O'CLOCK FROM THE TIME YOU ARRIVED HOME, IS THAT RIGHT, UPSTAIRS? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND WOULD THAT BE THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU SAW YOUR FIANCE', MISS STEIN, AT ABOUT 12:00 O'CLOCK THAT PARTICULAR NIGHT? A ACTUALLY, I PROBABLY WENT UP TO PUT SOMETHING IN, BUT SHE WAS IN BED, SO I DIDN'T WAKE HER UP. Q SHE WAS SLEEPING WHEN YOU WENT UP, IS THAT RIGHT, AS NEAR AS YOU CAN TELL? A AS NEAR AS I CAN TELL, YES. Q SO WHEN YOU WENT UP THERE ABOUT 12:00 O'CLOCK, IS THAT WHEN -- A THAT'S WHEN I DECIDED TO GO TO BED. Q AND DID YOU WAKE HER UP AT THAT POINT? A TO BE HONEST, I DON'T REMEMBER IF I WOKE HER. I'M SURE I DID. I HAD BEEN GONE FOR ALL WEEKEND. Q SO YOU THINK YOU PROBABLY WOKE HER UP? ALL RIGHT. THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT 12:00 O'CLOCK? A YES. Q ALL RIGHT. AND THE POLICE -- YOU BECAME AWARE OF THE POLICE IN THAT ALLEYWAY SOMETIME AROUND AN HOUR AFTER THAT; IS THAT CORRECT? A APPROXIMATELY, YES. Q HAD YOU FALLEN ASLEEP BY THAT TIME? A I THINK I DID, YES. Q SO IT WAS THE NOISE IN THE ALLEY THAT AWAKENED YOU ALSO? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q ALL RIGHT. WITH REGARD TO THE AKITA, DID YOU EVER SEE ANYTHING ON THE PAWS OF THE AKITA AT ALL? A NO, I DIDN'T. Q YOU DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING AT ALL ON THE PAWS OF THE AKITA? A NO. MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. KARPF. THE WITNESS: YOU ARE WELCOME. THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE MUCH REDIRECT, MISS CLARK? MS. CLARK: 10 MINUTES. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A RECESS AT THIS TIME. PLEASE REMEMBER MY ADMONITION TO YOU; DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONGST YOURSELVES, DON'T FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, ALLOW ANYBODY TO TALK TO YOU OR PERFORM ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO YOU. AND WE'LL TAKE THEM UP TO THE LOUNGE UPSTAIRS. ALL RIGHT. MR. KARPF, YOU ARE EXCUSED FOR ABOUT 25 MINUTES. DON'T DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANYBODY OTHER THAN THE ATTORNEYS. ALL RIGHT. YOU ARE ORDERED TO COME BACK AT 11:00 O'CLOCK. THANK YOU, SIR. DON'T FORGET YOUR JACKET. WE'LL STAND IN RECESS. (RECESS.) (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. ALL THE PARTIES ARE AGAIN PRESENT. COUNSEL, ANYTHING WE NEED TO DISCUSS BEFORE WE RESUME WITH MR. KARPF? ALL RIGHT. LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE. MS. CLARK: CAN THE WITNESS RESUME THE WITNESS STAND? THE COURT: YES, PLEASE. THANK YOU. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED. MR. KARPF, HAVE A SEAT, PLEASE. I WOULD LIKE THE RECORD TO REFLECT WE HAVE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL. MR. LOUIS KARPF IS STILL ON THE WITNESS STAND. MR. KARPF, YOU ARE REMINDED THAT YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH, SIR. AND MISS CLARK, YOU MAY COMMENCE YOUR REDIRECT EXAMINATION. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK: Q MR. KARPF, DID YOU AND I HAVE A LITTLE CONVERSATION OVER THIS PAST BREAK? A A LITTLE CONVERSATION. Q VERY LITTLE? I'M SORRY. MR. COCHRAN: MOVE TO STRIKE THAT LAST STATEMENT; TESTIFYING. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MISS CLARK. Q BY MS. CLARK: AND DO YOU RECALL THAT I ASKED YOU IF YOU REMEMBERED YOUR GIRLFRIEND COMING DOWNSTAIRS TO SEE YOU WHEN YOU GOT HOME FROM THE AIRPORT? A I DIDN'T REMEMBER THAT SHE DID, NO. Q DO YOU REMEMBER MY ASKING YOU THAT? A YES, YOU DO. Q AND YOUR ANSWER WAS? A I DIDN'T RECALL THAT SHE DID. IT IS POSSIBLE, BUT I DIDN'T RECALL THAT SHE DID. Q IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SHE DID, BUT YOU DON'T REMEMBER ANY MORE? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q IN THIS CASE, AFTER -- THE DAY AFTER YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT THE MURDERS, DO YOU RECALL THAT SHE TOLD YOU THAT HALF AN HOUR BEFORE YOU GOT HOME SHE WAS AWAKENED BY DOGS BARKING? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THIS QUESTION AS HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. MS. CLARK: MAY WE APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: SURE. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE OVER HERE AT THE SIDE BAR. THE OBJECTION IS HEARSAY. WHAT IS THIS, 1335? MS. CLARK: YES. THE COURT: PRIOR CONSISTENT -- MS. CLARK: OR IS IT 1235? THE COURT: 1235. MS. CLARK: IT IS 35, I KNOW YOU ARE RIGHT, PRIOR CONSISTENT STATEMENT. MR. COCHRAN: NO. YOUR HONOR, THIS IS NOT -- THIS IS NOT THE WAY YOU DEMONSTRATE ANY PRIOR CONSISTENT STATEMENT OR WHATEVER. THIS IS HEARSAY AND IT IS NOT AN EXCEPTION AND IT IS NOT ANY PRIOR CONSISTENT STATEMENT. AND I WOULD LIKE AN OFFER OF PROOF. MS. CLARK: COUNSEL JUST HAD IT AND COUNSEL HAS NO ARGUMENT WITH THIS ONE. IT CLEARLY IS A PRIOR CONSISTENT STATEMENT. IS ATTEMPTING TO IMPEACH EVA STEIN'S TESTIMONY THAT SHE WAS AWAKENED HALF AN HOUR BEFORE THIS WITNESS CAME HOME BY DOGS BARKING BY THIS WITNESS' STATEMENT THAT HE DOESN'T RECALL SEEING HER COME DOWNSTAIRS AND TALK TO HIM AND SHE HAS A PRIOR CONSISTENT STATEMENT WHERE SHE HAS TOLD HIM THE SAME THING THAT SHE HAS TOLD US. CLASSIC 1235. MR. COCHRAN: SHE MISSES THE ENTIRE POINT. THE POINT IS SHE IS TRYING TO FORCE EVERYTHING ON 1045 AND OVERLOOKING WHAT THESE WITNESSES TOLD EVERYBODY ELSE. SHE CAN'T -- THAT IS THE BIG PICTURE, AND THE SMALLER PICTURE, WHAT THIS WITNESS SAYS IS HE GOES -- GOES HOME, GETS HOME -- THE COURT: NO. THE ISSUE IS WHAT EVA STEIN SAID. MR. COCHRAN: YES. WHAT SHE SAID TO HIM IS STILL HEARSAY AND THAT IS NOT ANY PRIOR CONSISTENT STATEMENT. MS. CLARK: WELL, IF THAT IS NOT A PRIOR CONSISTENT STATEMENT, THEN I SUPPOSE NOTHING THAT COUNSEL WAS DOING -- MAYBE COUNSEL'S CROSS OF THIS WITNESS COULD ALL BE STRICKEN, BECAUSE IT SEEMED TO ME LIKE THE INTENT OF IT WAS IMPEACHMENT OF EVA STEIN. MR. COCHRAN: I'M NOT EVEN RESPONDING TO THAT, IT IS TOO RIDICULOUS, AND I'M BEING NICE TODAY. MS. CLARK: TODAY IS THE NICE DAY. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE OBJECTION WILL BE OVERRULED. IT IS A PRIOR CONSISTENT STATEMENT. MR. COCHRAN: WHAT IS THE OFFER OF PROOF, YOUR HONOR? CAN I HEAR THE OFFER OF PROOF? MS. CLARK: CAN WE NOT HAVE ARGUING AFTER THE RULING, MR. COCHRAN. MR. COCHRAN: I'M NOT ARGUING WITH ANYBODY. I WANT THE OFFER OF PROOF. THE COURT: WHAT IS HE GOING TO SAY? MS. CLARK: YEAH, SHE DID, OF COURSE. THE COURT: OKAY. THANK YOU. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. PROCEED. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED? THE COURT: YES. Q BY MS. CLARK: AND SO THE DAY AFTER THIS DID MISS -- DID YOUR GIRLFRIEND, MISS STEIN, TELL YOU THAT SHE WAS AWAKENED BY DOGS BARKING A HALF HOUR BEFORE YOU GOT HOME? A WE DID DISCUSS THAT SHE WAS AWAKENED FROM THE PREVIOUS NIGHT BY THE DOGS BARKING, YES. Q AND DID SHE TELL YOU THAT SHE WAS AWAKENED ABOUT A HALF HOUR BEFORE YOU GOT HOME BY THE DOGS BARKING? A I WOULD SAY THAT IS FAIRLY ACCURATE. I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS A HALF HOUR, 45 MINUTES, BUT IT IS IN THAT AREA, YES. Q I'M SORRY? A IT WOULD BE WITHIN THAT AREA, A HALF HOUR BEFORE SHE -- BEFORE I GOT HOME AT LEAST, MAYBE EVEN MORE. Q THAT IS WHAT SHE TOLD YOU? A RIGHT. Q AND THAT WAS THE DAY AFTER THE MURDERS? A THAT IS CORRECT. Q AND YOU DIDN'T SPEAK TO THE POLICE TO GIVE AN ACTUAL STATEMENT UNTIL JULY 7? A THAT IS CORRECT. Q NOW, YOU INDICATED THAT WITHIN FIVE MINUTES OR SO OF 10:45 IS WHEN YOU GOT HOME FROM THE AIRPORT? A I WOULD SAY IT IS CLOSER TO 10:45, 10:50, IN THAT AREA. Q SO ARE YOU -- ARE YOU CERTAIN THAT YOU GOT HOME BEFORE 11:00? A YES, I AM. Q ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN? A ABSOLUTELY. Q ARE YOU CERTAIN THAT YOU GOT HOME BEFORE 10:50? A NOT ABSOLUTELY, NO. Q OKAY. WHAT IS THE VERY LATEST YOU THINK YOU COULD HAVE GOTTEN HOME? A BY 10:50. Q NO LATER THAN THAT? A NO. Q THE GENTLEMAN THAT YOU INDICATED THAT YOU SAW WALKING THE DOG, YOU DON'T REMEMBER HIS HEIGHT OR HIS WEIGHT? WAS THAT YOUR TESTIMONY? A YES, I DID. I REALLY DIDN'T -- WASN'T TRYING TO OBSERVE HIM. Q SO GIVEN THAT FACT, SIR, IF YOU DID SEE HIM AGAIN IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, WOULD YOU HAVE RECOGNIZED HIM? A NO, I WOULDN'T. Q OKAY. DO YOU RECALL HOW LONG YOU WERE OUTSIDE IN FRONT OF BUNDY WHEN YOU WENT TO GET THE MAIL? A THE WHOLE PROCESS MAY HAVE TAKEN ONE TO TWO MINUTES. MS. CLARK: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN. MR. COCHRAN: YES, YOUR HONOR, JUST A FEW MORE QUESTIONS. RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN: Q MR. KARPF, SIR, WHEN YOU SPOKE WITH INTERVIEWING OFFICERS HARO AND HARPER AND YOU TOLD THEM THAT YOU HAD ARRIVED HOME BETWEEN 10:50 AND ELEVEN O'CLOCK, YOU WERE BEING AS ACCURATE AS YOU COULD AT THAT TIME; ISN'T THAT CORRECT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND HERE WE ARE NOW IN FEBRUARY OF 1994 AND YOUR MEMORY FOR EVENTS THAT ARE TAKING PLACE ON JUNE 12, 1994, WAS BETTER ON JULY 7, 1994, THAN IT IS NOW; ISN'T THAT CORRECT? A I WOULD SAY YES. Q YOU AGREE WITH THAT? ALL RIGHT. NOW, WITH REGARD TO THIS CONVERSATION, SIR, THAT YOU HAD WITH YOUR FIANCE, WHAT SHE TOLD YOU, ISN'T IT, THAT SHE TOLD YOU THAT YOU RETURNED TO THE RESIDENCE, SHE BELIEVED, APPROXIMATELY 30 TO 45 MINUTES AFTER SHE WAS AWAKENED BY THE BARKING DOGS; ISN'T THAT CORRECT? A THAT WOULD BE ABOUT CORRECT, YES. Q AND SHE ALSO TOLD YOU, DID SHE NOT, THAT SHE -- SHE TOLD YOU THAT SHE HAD HEARD MORE THAN ONE DOG BARKING, DIDN'T SHE, A FEW DOGS? DO YOU RECALL THAT? A I DON'T RECALL THAT, BUT IT IS POSSIBLE. Q ALL RIGHT. AND SHE TOLD YOU THAT SHE HAD FALLEN ASLEEP ABOUT TEN O'CLOCK THAT PARTICULAR EVENING, RIGHT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND THAT SOME TIME BETWEEN 10:15 P.M. AND 10:45 P.M. SHE WAS AWAKENED BY THIS INTENSE BARKING BY A FEW DOGS AS THE -- THE WINDOW WAS OPENED IN THE BACK PART OF YOUR HOUSE? IS THAT RIGHT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q ALL RIGHT. AND SO WHEN YOU TALKED TO THESE OFFICERS ON JULY 7 -- MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES NOT ONLY THE TESTIMONY, BUT THE POLICE REPORT. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. COCHRAN: I READ FROM THE POLICE REPORT, YOUR HONOR. I WAS READING DIRECTLY FROM IT. MAY I PROCEED? THANK YOU. Q WITH REGARD TO -- WHEN YOU TALKED TO THE POLICE ON JULY 7, YOU WERE TRYING TO BE AS ACCURATE AS YOU COULD? A YES. Q IN TELLING THEM THE TIME; IS THAT RIGHT? A THAT'S CORRECT. MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. KARPF. THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. THE COURT: MISS CLARK. MS. CLARK: DIRECTING COUNSEL'S ATTENTION TO PAGE 908 OF THE MURDER BOOK. FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK: Q MR. KARPF, I'M SHOWING YOU A STATEMENT HERE. DO YOU SEE YOUR NAME AT THE TOP? A YES, I DO. Q ALL RIGHT. I'M GOING TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO A LINE RIGHT HERE WHERE IT SAYS "WITNESS FURTHER STATED." MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: YES. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.) THE COURT: MISS CLARK. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q NOW, THIS IS YOUR WITNESS STATEMENT, RIGHT, MR. KARPF? A RIGHT. Q YOUR NAME IS AT THE TOP? A UH-HUH. Q IT SAYS HERE: "WITNESS FURTHER STATED THAT HIS GIRLFRIEND, EVA STEIN, HEARD DOGS BARKING EARLIER IN THE EVENING BETWEEN TEN O'CLOCK AND 10:30." WAS THAT YOUR STATEMENT TO THE POLICE, SIR? A THAT IS WHAT I SAID, YES. Q WAS THAT YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION BACK ON JULY 7 AS TO WHAT SHE HAD TOLD YOU? A THAT WOULD BE MY BEST RECOLLECTION, YES. Q AND DO YOU RECALL HER ALSO TELLING YOU, SIR, THAT SHE WAS AWAKENED BY DOGS BARKING A HALF AN HOUR BEFORE YOU GOT HOME? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q NOW, IN YOUR STATEMENT ALSO YOU INDICATED THAT YOU ARRIVED HOME FROM LOS ANGELES AIRPORT AT APPROXIMATELY 10:50 TO ELEVEN O'CLOCK? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q HOW CAREFULLY WERE YOU QUESTIONED AS TO THE TIMING OF YOUR ARRIVAL FROM THE AIRPORT? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q BY MS. CLARK: AT THIS TIME, SIR, YOU'VE MADE AN EFFORT TO RECALL VERY PRECISELY WHAT TIME YOU GOT HOME; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES, I HAVE. Q AT THE TIME THAT YOU SPOKE TO THE POLICE WERE YOU AWARE THAT THAT PARTICULAR ASPECT OF YOUR STATEMENT WOULD BE VERY IMPORTANT? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. ARGUMENTATIVE AND I WOULD -- THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q BY MS. CLARK: SIR, CAN YOU TELL US, DID YOU HAVE ANY IDEA -- DID YOU MAKE AN EFFORT TO BE -- TO BE VERY PRECISE IN THE TIMES THAT YOU GAVE THE POLICE OFFICERS WITH RESPECT TO WHEN YOU ARRIVED HOME FROM THE AIRPORT? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. IT HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED. 10:50 TO ELEVEN O'CLOCK IS FAIRLY APPROXIMATE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU REMEMBER THE QUESTION? A STATE IT AGAIN SO I CAN ANSWER IT CORRECTLY. MS. CLARK: LET ME FIND IT. THE COURT: THE QUESTION WAS DID YOU TRY TO BE VERY PRECISE IN HIS ANSWERS TO THE OFFICERS AS TO THE TIMES. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q DID YOU MAKE AN EFFORT TO BE VERY PRECISE IN THE TIME THAT YOU GAVE THE POLICE OFFICERS WITH RESPECT TO WHEN YOU ARRIVED FROM THE AIRPORT? A YES. I KNEW IT WAS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION AND DID TRY TO BE ACCURATE. Q OKAY. AND YOU TOLD THEM BETWEEN 10:50 AND ELEVEN O'CLOCK? A THAT IS WHAT I SAID. Q AND WAS THAT ACCURATE? A I WOULD SAY IT WAS -- IT WAS FAIRLY -- YES, IT WAS ACCURATE. Q WELL, TODAY YOU ARE SAYING IT WAS NO LATER THAN 10:50? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. SHE IS ARGUING WITH THE WITNESS, YOUR HONOR. I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: I WOULD SAY IT WAS CLOSER TO 10:50 THAN 11:00, BUT WITHIN THAT TEN MINUTES, WITHOUT DOCUMENTING IT, THAT WOULD BE ACCURATE. Q BY MS. CLARK: SO IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY AT THIS TIME THAT YOU COULD HAVE ARRIVED HOME AT ELEVEN O'CLOCK? A I DON'T THINK SO, BUT THAT WOULD BE A POSSIBILITY. Q WHAT IS YOUR RECOLLECTION TODAY, SIR, AS TO WHEN YOU GOT HOME? MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: IT WAS CLOSER TO 10:50. Q AND SO IF YOU WERE TO GIVE THE MOST ACCURATE ESTIMATE OF WHEN YOU GOT HOME, THAT TIME WOULD BE? MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q BY MS. CLARK: SIR, YOU INDICATED THAT YOU GOT -- YOUR PLANE LANDED AT TEN O'CLOCK AND YOU FELT THAT YOU -- MR. COCHRAN: THIS HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR. MS. CLARK: FOUNDATIONAL. THE COURT: COUNSEL, LET'S APPROACH WITH THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE OVER AT THE SIDE BAR. MARCIA, THIS GUY HAS SAID, HEY, MY BEST RECOLLECTION IS 10:50. HE SAID THIS FOUR TIMES NOW. JOHNNIE HAS GOT HIM TO SAY, YEAH, I TOLD THE POLICE IT WAS SOMETIME BETWEEN 10:50 AND 11:00. HE SAID FOUR TIMES NOW MY BEST RECOLLECTION NOW IS 10:50. HOW MANY TIMES ARE WE GOING TO GO OVER THIS? JUST A QUESTION. MS. CLARK: YOU ARE RIGHT. MR. COCHRAN: YOU ARE RIGHT. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. MS. CLARK: OKAY. MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU. LET'S SIT DOWN NOW. MS. CLARK: OKAY. THE COURT: OKAY. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MISS CLARK. MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: CERTAINLY. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q BY MS. CLARK: SIR, WHAT WAS THE CLOSEST YOU EVER GOT TO THAT DOG THAT WAS IN THE STREET, THE AKITA? MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q BY MS. CLARK: WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE DOG'S PAWS AND LEGS CLEARLY? A I COULD SEE HIS LEGS CLEARLY. HIS PAWS I WASN'T LOOKING AT. Q WAS IT DARK IN THE STREET WHERE THAT DOG WAS? A IT WAS FAIRLY DARK, YES. Q DID YOU EXAMINE HIS LEGS OR HIS PAWS CAREFULLY WHEN YOU LOOKED AT HIM? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. IMPROPER REDIRECT. OBJECT TO THAT. THE COURT: THAT OBJECTION IS OVERRULED. MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: NO, I DIDN'T LOOK AT HIS PAWS, OR DO YOU WANT TO REPHRASE THAT ONE MORE TIME? Q BY MS. CLARK: WERE YOU EXAMINING ITS LEGS OR ITS PAWS VERY CAREFULLY WHEN YOU SAW IT OUT IN THE STREET THERE? A NO, I WASN'T. Q YOU WERE FRIGHTENED BY IT IN FACT? A FRIGHTENED BY HIS BARKING. Q ABOUT HOW LONG DID YOU LOOK AT THAT DOG? MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. HE HAS TESTIFIED TO THIS ALREADY. MS. CLARK: I DIDN'T ASK HIM ABOUT THIS, YOUR HONOR. THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO COUNSEL'S QUESTIONING ABOUT WHETHER HE SAW BLOOD ON THE LEGS, AND I DON'T THINK I DID. THE COURT: WELL, IT IS A SIMPLE QUESTION AND ANSWER. IT WILL TAKE ME MORE TIME TO GO BACK THROUGH MY NOTES TO SEE, SO GO AHEAD AND ANSWER THE QUESTION. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: HOW LONG DID YOU LOOK AT THE DOG? THE WITNESS: I WOULD SAY I SAW THE DOG NO MORE THAN A MINUTE, BASICALLY, MAYBE A MINUTE AND A HALF. Q BY MS. CLARK: AND DURING WHICH TIME THE DOG WAS MOVING AROUND AND BARKING? A THAT IS CORRECT. MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. MR. COCHRAN: MERCIFULLY I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS, MR. KARPF. YOU MAY BE EXCUSED. THANK YOU. THE COURT: MR. KARPF, I'M GOING TO EXCUSE YOU FROM FURTHER ATTENDANCE THIS MORNING. PLEASE DON'T DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANYBODY ELSE, EXCEPT FOR THE ATTORNEYS, UNTIL THE MATTER IS CONCLUDED. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, YOUR NEXT WITNESS, PLEASE. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE PEOPLE CALL MR. STEVEN SCHWAB. (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. IS ONE OF YOUR COLLEAGUES BRINGING MR. SCHWAB IN? MS. CLARK: I WILL GO GET HIM. (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. SCHWAB, COULD YOU STAND OVER HERE BY THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE, AND FACE THE CLERK. STEVEN SCHWAB, CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE, WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: THE CLERK: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU MAY GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT, SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD. THE WITNESS: I DO. THE CLERK: PLEASE BE SEATED ON THE WITNESS STAND AND STATE AND SPELL YOUR FIRST AND LAST NAMES FOR THE RECORD. THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS STEVEN SCHWAB. THAT IS S-T-E-V-E-N S-C-H-W-A-B. THE CLERK: THANK YOU. THE COURT: MISS CLARK. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK: Q GOOD MORNING, MR. SCHWAB. A GOOD MORNING. Q I'M GOING TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE EVENTS THAT OCCURRED ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12, SUNDAY, 1994. A UH-HUH. Q AS OF THAT DATE, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US WHERE YOU WERE LIVING? A YES. I WAS LIVING AT 11965 MONTANA AVENUE. THAT IS BETWEEN BUNDY AND SAN VICENTE. Q OKAY. THERE IS A MAP THAT HAS BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 26 TO YOUR LEFT. A UH-HUH. Q COULD YOU INDICATE ON THIS MAP WHERE, APPROXIMATELY, YOU WERE LIVING. A MAY I USE THIS HERE? Q THERE SHOULD BE A BIGGER ONE. THIS ONE IS BETTER. A THANK YOU. THIS IS WHERE I LIVED, (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS POINTED TO I GUESS IT IS A GREEN HOUSE THAT IS INDICATED ON MONTANA. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. NOTED. Q BY MS. CLARK: AND WERE YOU A PET OWNER AT THAT TIME, SIR? A YES, I WAS. Q WHAT DID YOU OWN? A I HAVE A DOG SHERRY AND I ALSO OWN A CAT. Q DO YOU WANT TO PULL THAT MICROPHONE IN A LITTLE BIT, SIR, AND SPEAK RIGHT INTO IT LIKE A TELEPHONE. A OKAY. THANKS. (WITNESS COMPLIES.) Q OKAY. DID YOU HAVE A HABIT WITH RESPECT TO WALKING YOUR DOG? A YES. I WOULD WALK THE DOG THE SAME TIME EVERY NIGHT DURING THE WEEK AND ON THE WEEKEND I ALSO HAD A HABIT THAT WAS THE SAME WEEK TO WEEK. Q AND WHAT WAS THAT HABIT? A WELL, DURING THE WEEK I WOULD WALK MY DOG BETWEEN 11:00 AND 11:30 SO THAT WHEN I GOT HOME I WAS ABLE TO WATCH THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW ON T.V. ON THE WEEKENDS I WALKED THE DOG BETWEEN 10:30 AND 11:00 BECAUSE THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW ENDS AT 10:30 ON THE WEEKEND, SO I HAD THE SAME HABIT AND ROUGHLY A HALF HOUR EACH NIGHT WHEN I WALK MY DOG. Q NOW, THE SHOW THAT YOU WATCHED ON THE WEEKEND, IS THAT ALSO DICK VAN DYKE? A YEAH. IT IS A LITTLE -- THE SCHEDULE IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT, BUT AT THAT TIME IT WAS THAT THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW RAN FROM 10:00 TO 10:30. I WOULD WALK MY DOG FROM 10:30 TO 11:00 AND ELEVEN O'CLOCK I WOULD GO HOME AND WATCH THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW. THAT WAS MY SUNDAY EVENING. Q WAS THAT A HABIT OR ROUTINE FOR YOU? A THAT WAS WHAT I DID, YOU KNOW, TO RELAX BEFORE STARTING A NEW WORK WEEK. Q AND ON JUNE 12, A SUNDAY, DID YOU FOLLOW THAT SAME ROUTINE, SIR? A YES, I DID. Q NOW, ON THAT PARTICULAR NIGHT DO YOU RECALL WHAT YOU -- WHAT EPISODE YOU WERE WATCHING OF THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW? A NOT -- I'M NOT COMPLETELY CLEAR ON WHAT EPISODE IT WAS ON THAT PARTICULAR NIGHT. Q BUT YOU KNOW YOU WERE WATCHING THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW? A I KNOW THAT I WATCHED THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW AND IT ENDED JUST PRIOR TO 10:30. Q SO WHEN IT ENDED, SIR, WHAT DID YOU DO? A WHEN IT ENDED I TOOK MY DOG'S LEASH FROM THE CLOSET AND PUT IT ON MY DOG AND TOOK MY DOG OUT FOR A WALK. Q AND YOU LEFT YOUR APARTMENT HOW LONG AFTER THE SHOW ENDED, SIR? A SHORTLY AFTER -- AFTER THE SHOW ENDED, WITHIN A FEW MINUTES. DIDN'T TAKE VERY LONG. Q OKAY. WITHIN, WHAT? A TWO -- TWO OR THREE MINUTES. Q OKAY. SO AT WHAT -- AT 10:32 OR 10:33 YOU LEFT? A APPROXIMATELY, YEAH. Q NOW, CAN YOU TELL US WHERE YOU WENT WHEN YOU LEFT YOUR APARTMENT? A WELL, AGAIN, THIS IS A HABIT THAT I HAVE. I WALK MY DOG DOWN BUNDY AND I WENT -- I'M SORRY. I WALK MY DOG DOWN MONTANA TOWARDS BUNDY AND THEN I WENT PASSED BUNDY AND I MADE A LEFT ON A STREET CALLED GRETNA GREEN OVER HERE AND THEN I MADE A LEFT AND I WALKED DOWN ONE BLOCK AND MADE A RIGHT ON GORHAM AND CONTINUED ALONG GORHAM UNTIL I GOT TO THIS STREET HERE, THIS STREET HERE, WHICH IS AMHURST AND THEN I MADE A LEFT ON AMHURST AND THEN MADE A LEFT ON DOROTHY AND WALKED ALONG DOROTHY UNTIL I GOT BACK TO BUNDY, WHICH IS THE CORNER OVER HERE, (INDICATING), AND I WALK DOWN BUNDY THEN AND RETURN TO MY HOUSE ON MONTANA. Q OKAY. I WILL TELL YOU WHAT. IF YOU DON'T MIND, WE ARE GOING TO PUT THIS UP ON THE MONITOR. A UH-HUH. Q AND WE ARE GOING TO TRACE THE ROUTE AS YOU TELL IT TO US. OKAY? A OF COURSE. Q NOW, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A MONITOR THAT IS TO YOUR RIGHT. A OKAY. Q ALL RIGHT. A WHAT AM I SUPPOSED -- Q YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING. WE ARE GOING TO DO IT FOR YOU AS YOU SPEAK AND YOU TELL US IF WE ARE DOING RIGHT. A OKAY. THE COURT: LET'S SLIDE THIS OVER. MS. CLARK: A LITTLE BIT OVER THAT WAY. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q DOES THAT COVER THE AREA? A YEAH. A LITTLE -- YEAH, THAT COVERS THE AREA ENTIRELY. THIS MAP DOESN'T HAVE THE SYMBOL FOR MY HOUSE, BUT IT IS JUST ABOVE THE "B." Q BUNDY? A IT IS ABOUT THE THIRD HOUSE FROM THE CORNER OF BUNDY AND MONTANA. Q I WILL TELL YOU WHAT. DO YOU SEE WHERE THE CROSS IS? A A LITTLE FURTHER. Q OKAY. A ABOUT THERE. Q THERE? A ROUGHLY. MS. CLARK: CAN WE PUT AN "X"? THERE. WE HAVE A CROSS THERE. Q IS THAT ACCURATE? A THAT IS VERY ACCURATE. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S CALL THIS PEOPLE'S 41. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. (PEO'S 41-A THRU 41-E FOR ID = 5 PHOTOGRAPHS) MS. CLARK: WE ARE GOING TO PUT THE INITIALS "S.S." THERE WE GO. GOOD. ALL RIGHT. Q CAN YOU TELL US THE ROUTE THEN AND WE ARE GOING TO TRACE IT FOR YOU ON THIS. A OKAY. I LEAVE MY HOUSE ON MONTANA AVENUE AND I WALK DOWN MONTANA TOWARD BUNDY. I CROSS THE STREET AT BUNDY AND CONTINUED ALONG MONTANA UNTIL I GET TO GRETNA GREEN. AT GRETNA GREEN I MAKE A LEFT AND THEN CONTINUE ON UNTIL I GET TO GORHAM. AT GORHAM I MAKE ANOTHER LEFT AND CONTINUE ON TO THE NEXT CROSS STREET WHICH IS -- WHICH IS AMHURST. AT AMHURST I TURN LEFT AND CONTINUED ON TO DOROTHY. AT DOROTHY I TURNED LEFT AGAIN AND CONTINUED ON DOROTHY PASSED -- PASSING GRETNA GREEN AGAIN AND CONTINUED UNTIL I GOT TO DOROTHY AND BUNDY. AT THE CORNER OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY I TURNED LEFT AND CONTINUE ON BUNDY DOWN PASSED GORHAM, ALL THE WAY TO MONTANA, AND THEN I WALK DOWN MONTANA UNTIL I RETURN TO MY HOME. Q ALL RIGHT. I'M GOING TO LEAVE THAT THERE BECAUSE WE ARE GOING TO MARK IT AGAIN. OKAY? A UH-HUH. Q NOW, YOU LEFT YOUR HOME WITH YOUR DOG AT ABOUT YOU SAID 10:32 OR 10:33? A SHORTLY AFTER 10:30. NOT EXACTLY. THE SHOW ENDS EXACTLY AT 10:30 BECAUSE THE NEXT SHOW STARTS AT 10:30, BUT I LEFT SHORTLY AFTER THE END OF THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW, SO A COUPLE OF MINUTES. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q BY MS. CLARK: WE ARE GOING ON TO HIGHLIGHT THAT IN RED TO MAKE IT A LITTLE MORE VISIBLE. A UH-HUH. Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, HOW CAN YOU BE SO CERTAIN OF THIS ROUTE? A WELL, IT IS A ROUTE THAT I USE FREQUENTLY. IT IS ONE THAT I DESIGNED TO TAKE ABOUT A HALF HOUR TO GET ME HOME SO I CAN WATCH WHATEVER SHOWS I WANT. IF I CHOOSE TO VARY THE ROUTE, I CAN, BUT THIS IS A BASIC ROUTE, KIND OF A CIRCLE. I MEAN, YOU CAN SEE THAT IT TAKES ME HOME AGAIN VERY EASILY. ALSO, IT IS A VERY BEAUTIFUL NEIGHBORHOOD. I PASS A LOT OF NICE HOUSES ALONG THE WAY AND IT IS PLEASANT, PLEASANT WALK. Q NOW, CAN YOU TELL US WAS THERE ANY POINT AT WHICH YOU CHECKED YOUR WATCH TO SEE WHAT TIME IT WAS? A ON THIS PARTICULAR EVENING I CHECKED MY WATCH ONCE AT THE CORNER OF GRETNA GREEN AND MONTANA. Q OKAY. WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU GOT TO GRETNA GREEN AND MONTANA? A MY DOG HAD TAKEN CARE OF ITS DUTY AND I CLEANED UP AFTER IT AND I CHECKED MY WATCH TO SEE WHETHER I SHOULD CONTINUE ON OR RETURN HOME. FOR THE DOG'S SAKE I DIDN'T HAVE TO CONTINUE ON IF I DIDN'T WANT TO, AND THAT WAS BETWEEN 10:35 AND 10:40 WHEN I CHECKED MY WATCH, SOMEWHERE -- YOU KNOW, SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE THERE, BECAUSE I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T HAVE A DIGITAL WATCH. I HAVE AN ANALOG WATCH AND THAT IS WHERE THE HAND WAS. Q SO THE HAND ON THE WATCH IS BETWEEN 10:35 AND 10:40? A YES. Q YOU MADE A POINT OF LOOKING AT YOUR WATCH AT THAT POINT? A YES. Q OKAY. THAT WAS AT THE CORNER OF GRETNA GREEN AND MONTANA? A YES. MS. CLARK: CAN YOU WRITE IN AT THAT INTERSECTION, AT THAT CORNER OF GRETNA GREEN AND MONTANA -- YELLOW? BLACK? OKAY. OKAY. 10:35 TO 10:40. JOHN MADDEN HE IS NOT, BUT CAN YOU MAKE THAT "5" A LITTLE BIT BETTER, JOHN. THE COURT: I THINK THE JURY CAN READ THE MAP AS WELL AND FIGURE OUT WHERE THE CORNER OF GRETNA GREEN AND MONTANA IS. MS. CLARK: I JUST WANTED HIM TO WRITE THE NUMBER. THAT WILL BE RIGHT THERE. ALL RIGHT. Q IS THAT ACCURATE, SIR? A YES. Q ALL RIGHT. A YES. Q THEN YOU CONTINUED WALKING? A YES. Q AND AT SOME POINT DURING YOUR WALK, SIR, DID SOMETHING UNUSUAL OCCUR? A YES. AS I CONTINUED ON, AFTER I HAD STARTED DOWN DOROTHY PASSED GRETNA GREEN, IT WAS ROUGHLY HALFWAY DOWN THE BLOCK ABOUT WHERE THAT ALLEY IS, I SAW THAT THERE WAS A DOG AT THE CORNER OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY. NOW, AT THAT TIME I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T THINK THERE WAS ANYTHING UNUSUAL. I THOUGHT THE OWNER WAS PROBABLY AROUND THE CORNER ON BUNDY SOMEWHERE AND IT WAS ANOTHER DOG WALKER. Q APPROXIMATELY, IF YOU KNOW, HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO GET FROM THE CORNER OF GRETNA GREEN AND MONTANA TO THE CORNER OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY? A WELL, AGAIN IT TAKES -- THE HALFWAY POINT OF MY ROUTE IS ROUGHLY ON AMHURST, SO THAT TAKES ME ABOUT FIFTEEN MINUTES, SO IT WAS AFTER -- IT WAS AFTER THAT. BASICALLY I MEAN IN TERMS OF WHAT TIME I GOT HOME, THIS WAS TOWARD THE END OF MY ROUTE, SO THIS I WOULD SAY WAS BETWEEN ABOUT -- ABOUT 10:55 OR SO THAT I SAW THE DOG. THAT IS ANOTHER FIVE -- BETWEEN FIVE AND TEN MINUTES FOR ME TO GET HOME FROM THAT POINT FROM THE CORNER OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY. Q SO APPROXIMATELY 10:55 YOU GOT TO THE CORNER OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY? A THAT'S CORRECT. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 10:55? MS. CLARK: UH-HUH. JUST PUT "APPROXIMATELY." THE COURT: I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO GET TOO DETAILED ON THESE THINGS BECAUSE THE JURORS HAVE THEIR NOTEBOOKS. MS. CLARK: RIGHT. THAT'S IT. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q ALL RIGHT. SO YOU GOT TO THE CORNER OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY AND YOU SAW A DOG? A YES. Q WAS THERE ANYONE WITH THAT DOG? A NO. AS I GOT TO THE CORNER I SAW THAT THE DOG WAS ALONE. AT THAT POINT IT WAS JUST STANDING ON THE CORNER. Q WHAT DID YOU DO? A WELL, I APPROACHED THE DOG AND I WANTED -- I SAW THAT IT WAS ALONE AND I OBSERVED THE DOG FOR A MINUTE OR TWO AND IT WAS DOING AN UNUSUAL THING. IT WOULD TURN AWAY FROM ME AND LOOK DOWN -- THERE IS A HOUSE ON THE CORNER OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY AND IT WOULD LOOK DOWN THE PATH LEADING TO THE DOORWAY OF THAT HOUSE AND BARK AT THE HOUSE FOR A BRIEF -- FOR A BRIEF INTERVAL AND THEN IT WOULD STOP AND THEN IT WOULD TURN BACK TO ME AND IT WOULD BARK AT THIS HOUSE, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT I HAD NEVER SEEN BEFORE. I DIDN'T KNOW -- I DIDN'T KNOW QUITE WHAT TO MAKE OF THAT. Q COULD YOU TELL WHAT HOUSE IT WAS BARKING AT? A IT WAS -- IT WAS BARKING AT THE CORNER HOUSE. AGAIN THERE IS A PATH AT THAT PARTICULAR CORNER HOUSE THAT LEADS ALMOST DIRECTLY TO THE CORNER, AND IT WAS LOOKING DOWN THE PATH AND BARKING ESSENTIALLY AT THE FRONT DOOR. Q AND WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANYTHING -- WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THAT HOUSE? A YEAH. I COULD SEE THAT HOUSE CLEARLY FROM WHERE I WAS STANDING. Q AND DID THERE SEEM TO BE ANYTHING UNUSUAL IN THAT HOUSE? A NO. IT WAS -- IT WAS QUIET. IT WAS DARK. I DIDN'T KNOW IF THE PEOPLE WERE ASLEEP OR NOT HOME, BUT THERE WAS NOTHING GOING ON IN THE HOUSE, ESSENTIALLY. Q NOW, THIS WAS THE HOUSE THAT WAS ON THE CORNER OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY? A ON THE CORNER OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY, YES. Q AND WHEN YOU SAW THE DOG BARKING THERE, WHAT DID YOU DO? A WELL, AGAIN I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO MAKE OF IT, BUT CLEARLY AT THIS POINT, BECAUSE THERE WAS NO ONE WITH THE DOG, I FIGURED THAT THIS WAS A LOST DOG, SO I WANTED TO CHECK THE COLLAR TO SEE IF THERE WAS A NAME TAG WITH AN ADDRESS SO THAT I COULD BRING THE DOG HOME, BUT I KNOW THAT AKITAS CAN BE VERY PROTECTIVE DOGS, SO BEFORE I WENT TO TOUCH THE COLLAR, I LET THE DOG SMELL ME AND THEN I PATTED IT ON THE HEAD AND SAID, YOU KNOW, "GOOD BOY" AND YOU KNOW, "GOOD DOG," TO SHOW THAT I WAS FRIENDLY. AND WHEN I SAW THAT THE DOG WASN'T GOING TO BITE ME OR ATTACK ME IN ANY WAY, I PUT MY HAND ON THE COLLAR AND TURNED IT AROUND TO SEE IF THERE WAS A TAG. Q YOU KNEW THERE WAS AN AKITA? A YES, I KNEW THE BREED. I'M A DOG OWNER AND I KNEW SOME BREEDS OF DOGS, AND AKITAS IS ONE OF THE BREEDS I'M FAMILIAR WITH. MS. CLARK: I HAVE HERE A BOARD ENTITLED "NICOLE'S AKITA." Q CAN YOU TELL US DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE DOG DEPICTED IN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS, SIR? A YES. YES, THIS LOOKS LIKE THE DOG THAT -- IT LOOKS LIKE THE SAME COLLAR THAT I SAW THAT NIGHT. Q AND YOU SAW THE COLLAR THAT IS DEPICTED IN THAT LAST PHOTOGRAPH? A YES. I SAW THE COLLAR AND NOTICED THAT IT WAS EMBROIDERED, THAT IT WAS RED AND BLUE WITH EMBROIDERED SYMBOLS ON IT. IT SEEMED EXTENSIVE TO ME. IT WASN'T SOMETHING THAT I COULD AFFORD TO GET FOR MY OWN DOG, BUT I NOTICED THAT. AND AGAIN I TURNED -- I LOOKED AT IT EXTENSIVELY TO SEE IF THERE WAS A TAG OR SOMETHING WRITTEN ON THE COLLAR, BUT THERE WASN'T. THE COURT: WHAT EXHIBIT IS THIS? MS. CLARK: I AM SORRY? THE COURT: WHAT EXHIBIT IS THIS? MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY, PEOPLE'S 40. Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, AS YOU LOOKED AT THE DOG AND YOU EXAMINED IT FOR A TAG -- A UH-HUH. Q -- DID YOU HAPPEN TO NOTICE ITS PAWS OR ITS LEGS? A YES. AS I GOT CLOSER TO THE DOG THE FIRST THING I SAW WAS SOME BLOOD ON ONE OF THE BACK PAWS. THE FIRST THING I NOTICED ABOVE THE PAW SLIGHTLY ON THE LEG WAS A STREAK OR BLOOD OR DRIP OF BLOOD ON ONE OF THE BACK PAWS, AND THAT WAS UNUSUAL, SO I OBSERVED MORE CLOSELY AND SAW THAT THERE WAS ALSO BLOOD ON THE BOTTOM OF THE PAWS. ALSO, THE UNDERSIDE OF THE DOG WAS DIRTY. IT WAS -- IT WAS -- THERE WAS BROWN STUFF ON THE BOTTOM OF THE DOG. Q OKAY. COULD YOU TELL -- YOU MEAN ON THE STOMACH? A ON THE STOMACH AND EVEN IN THE CHEST AREA. Q OKAY. COULD YOU TELL WHETHER THAT BROWN STUFF WAS BLOOD OR DIRT? A NO, I COULDN'T TELL. IT COULD HAVE BEEN EITHER. I JUST DIDN'T KNOW. Q ON THE LEGS AND THE PAWS, COULD YOU TELL IF IT WAS BLOOD OR DIRT? A THERE I KNEW THAT IT WAS BLOOD. IT WAS RED. IT HADN'T -- IT WASN'T BROWN, THAT WAS CLEARLY RED, AND THE -- THE ONE -- STUFF ON THE LEG WAS MOIST. I DIDN'T TOUCH IT. I DIDN'T GET BLOOD ON ME, BUT IT WAS -- IT WAS RED. Q OKAY. AND IT APPEARED STILL TO BE MOIST TO YOU? A YES. Q DID YOU -- DID YOU LOOK TO SEE WHAT THE SOURCE OF THAT BLOOD WAS? A WELL, I EXAMINED THE PAWS AND I CONSIDERED THAT PERHAPS THE DOG HAD CUT ITS PAW AND THAT IS WHERE THE BLOOD THE CAME FROM. I DIDN'T NOTICE ANYTHING WRONG WITH THE DOG'S PAWS, BUT ALSO, IT IS A DARK CORNER, SO I WASN'T COMPLETELY SURE, YOU KNOW, WHETHER THERE MIGHT BE A PIECE OF GLASS WEDGED INTO ONE OF THE PAWS OR SOMETHING, BUT I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING LIKE THAT AT THAT TIME. Q OKAY. SO WAS IT DARK -- IT WAS DARK IN THAT AREA, SIR? A THAT IS A VERY DARK CORNER. THAT IS A DARK AREA -- THAT SIDE OF THE STREET IS DARK. Q THAT SIDE OF THE STREET MEANING THE WEST SIDE OF BUNDY? A YES. THE WEST SIDE OF BUNDY IS -- IS DARKER -- IS DARKER THAN THE EAST SIDE OF BUNDY, JUST BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF THE STREET LIGHTS THAT ARE THERE. Q SO WHAT HAPPENED AFTER YOU LOOKED AT THE DOG? YOU NOTICED ITS PAWS AND ITS LEGS AND ITS COLLAR? A YEAH. Q WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A WELL, I WAS -- I WAS CONFUSED, I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT TO MAKE OF THE SITUATION, AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE DOG WOULD DO. AT THAT POINT I CROSSED THE STREET. I CROSSED FROM THE EAST SIDE OF BUNDY -- I'M SORRY -- FROM THE WEST SIDE OF BUNDY TO THE EAST SIDE OF BUNDY TO SEE BASICALLY WHAT THE DOG WOULD DO. Q ALL RIGHT. YOU SAY YOU WENT FROM THE WEST SIDE TO THE EAST SIDE OF BUNDY? A YES. THAT IS ANOTHER PART OF MY ROUTE. THAT IS WHAT I DO. I CROSS THE STREET AT THAT POINT. THAT IS WHAT I DO. IT IS A LITTLE LIGHTER ON THAT SIDE OF THE STREET. Q SO YOU LIKE IT BETTER BECAUSE IT IS LIGHTER ON THE EAST SIDE OF THE STREET? A YES. Q NOW, I'M POINTING TO YOU THIS RED -- THIS RED HOUSE AND THE BLUE HOUSE. A YES. Q ON THE WEST SIDE OF BUNDY. A YES. Q OKAY. AND YOU SAW THE DOG ON THE CORNER OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY ON THE WEST SIDE? A THAT WAS ON THE WEST SIDE, YES. Q AND AFTER YOU LOOKED AT THE DOG YOU CROSSED OVER TO THE EAST SIDE? A YES. Q AND WHAT DID YOU DO THEN? A WELL, I BASICALLY WANTED TO SEE WHAT THE DOG WOULD DO. IF THE DOG WOULD GO IN A PARTICULAR DIRECTION, THEN MAYBE COULD I FOLLOW IT AND FIND OUT WHERE IT CAME FROM. BUT THE DOG STAYED WITH MYSELF AND MY DOG. IT CROSSED THE STREET WITH US. IT STAYED WITH US. Q AND DID IT FOLLOW YOU? A YEAH. AT THAT POINT I TURNED LEFT TO HEAD BACK -- AT THAT POINT I CONTINUED. I TURNED LEFT TO GO DOWN BACK TOWARDS MONTANA AND THE DOG STAYED WITH US AS WE WALKED, BUT IT THEN CONTINUED ITS -- ITS ROUTINE OF AS WE PASSED A HOUSE IT WOULD LOOK DOWN THE PATH AND BARK AND HOWL AT THE HOUSES THAT WE PASSED. Q DID IT DO THAT AT EVERY HOUSE THAT YOU PASSED? A IT DID THAT AT EVERY HOUSE ALONG HERE, (INDICATING), ON THIS SIDE -- ON THIS SIDE OF BUNDY. IT DID THAT AT SEVERAL HOUSES ALONG HERE PRETTY CONSISTENTLY WHEN THERE WAS A PATH THAT LED -- YOU KNOW, THAT LED UP THE STREET. SOMETIMES THERE WERE STEPS AND THINGS LIKE THAT AND THERE WAS EVEN A WALL, BUT WHEN THERE WAS A SITUATION WITH A PATH LEADING TO A DOOR, IT WOULD BARK DOWN THE PATH. MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, WHEN THE WITNESS SAID "ALONG HERE," HE WAS POINTING TO THE EAST SIDE OF BUNDY IN THE AREA OF THE TWO ICONS THAT ARE DEPICTED ON THAT SIDE OF THE STREET. THE COURT: YES, ON PEOPLE'S 40. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q SO EVERY TIME IT WOULD PASS A HOUSE ON THE EAST SIDE OF BUNDY WHERE YOU WERE WALKING -- A UH-HUH. Q -- THAT HAD A PATH LEADING UP TO IT, IT WOULD STOP AND BARK? A IT WOULD STOP AND BARK -- BARK DOWN THE PATH. Q AND HOW MANY TIMES DID IT DO THAT? A I WOULD SAY APPROXIMATELY THREE TIMES. Q OKAY. A THERE WAS SEVERAL. THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE. IT WASN'T LIKE ABOUT TEN OR TWELVE. IT WAS APPROXIMATELY, I WOULD SAY, THREE TIMES IT DID THAT. Q DID THAT SEEM UNUSUAL TO YOU? A THAT SEEMED VERY UNUSUAL TO ME. I HAD NOT SEEN A DOG BEHAVE IN THIS -- IN THIS MANNER EVER AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER IT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS LOST OR BECAUSE IT HAD COME FROM ONE OF THESE HOUSES, BUT THAT DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE THE CASE EITHER, BECAUSE IT DIDN'T TURN DOWN THE PATH TO ANY OF THESE HOUSES. IT WOULD JUST BARK AT THEM. Q OKAY. NOW, WAS IT -- WHAT WAS THE TRAFFIC IN THAT AREA AT THAT TIME? WAS IT VERY HEAVY? WAS IT VERY LIGHT? A BUNDY IS VERY QUIET THAT TIME OF NIGHT, ESPECIALLY A SUNDAY NIGHT. THERE IS NOT A LOT OF TRAFFIC ON THE STREET. I DON'T RECALL SEEING A PARTICULAR NUMBER OF CARS. I WOULDN'T NECESSARILY SAY THERE WERE NO CARS, BUT THERE WAS NOT VERY MUCH TRAFFIC AT ALL. THERE GENERALLY ISN'T WHEN I WALK THAT TIME OF NIGHT. Q DID YOU CONTINUE TO WALK AND THE DOG CONTINUE TO FOLLOW YOU? A YES, I CONTINUED DOWN -- I CONTINUED DOWN BUNDY TOWARDS GORHAM. Q HOW -- DID THE DOG STAY CLOSE TO YOU? A YES. THE DOG STAYED VERY CLOSE AND IT WOULD DO THIS -- THIS THING OF BARKING AT THE HOUSES, AND THE FIRST COUPLE OF TIMES I KIND OF WATCHED JUST TO SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON, BUT THEN LATER I CONTINUED WALKING AND THE DOG WOULD -- WOULD CATCH UP TO US IN ORDER TO STAY WITH US. IT WOULD BARK, BUT IT VERY CLEARLY WANTED TO STAY WITH MYSELF AND MY DOG. Q NOW, DID YOU JUST SAY THAT YOU TURNED ON TO GORHAM OR YOU CROSSED GORHAM? A NO. I WAS WALKING TOWARDS GORHAM AT THAT POINT. I HAD TURNED LEFT AT BUNDY AND DOROTHY AND WAS WALKING ALONG THE EAST SIDE OF THE STREET TOWARDS BUNDY AND GORHAM. Q OKAY. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A WELL, AT THAT POINT I SAW A POLICE OFFICER DRIVE BY, AND THE UNUSUAL NATURE OF ALL THIS, I FLAGGED DOWN THE POLICE OFFICER TO TELL HIM THAT I HAD -- I HAD FOUND THIS LOST DOG AND THAT IT WAS UNUSUAL TO SEE A LOOSE DOG IN BRENTWOOD AT THIS TIME OF NIGHT. IT IS UNUSUAL TO SEE A LOOSE DOG IN BRENTWOOD AT ANY TIME. THIS WAS THE ONLY TIME I HAVE SEEN IT. Q ALL RIGHT. WERE YOU CONCERNED WITH WHAT TO DO WITH THE DOG? A I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THE DOG. BEING A PET OWNER MYSELF, I'M VERY SENSITIVE TO A DOG BEING SEPARATED FROM ITS OWNER, SO WHAT I HAD DONE IN THE PAST, WHEN MY WIFE AND MYSELF HAD FOUND A LOST DOG, WAS TO BRING THE DOG HOME AND TRY TO FIND THE OWNER BY PUTTING UP POSTERS. AND YOU SEE THEM ALL THE TIME, LOST DOG, MAYBE TAKE A PICTURE OF THE DOG AND PUT THAT WITH IT BECAUSE I DIDN'T -- I HAD NO IDEA HOW LONG THIS DOG HAD BEEN LOST FOR. THE DIRTINESS OF IT LED ME TO BELIEVE IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN SOME TIME. Q DID YOU ENCOUNTER ANY POLICE ON YOUR WALK? A YES. AS I WAS WALKING BETWEEN DOROTHY AND GORHAM ON BUNDY I SAW A POLICE OFFICER DRIVE BY AND I FLAGGED HIM DOWN. Q DID YOU HAVE SOME CONVERSATION WITH HIM? A YES. AT THAT POINT I TOLD HIM THAT I HAD FOUND THIS LOST DOG AND INDICATED THE CORNER AT WHICH I HAD FOUND THE DOG AND TOLD HIM THAT I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT TO DO IN THIS SITUATION, THAT I WANTED TO ALERT HIM AND MAYBE SOMEONE HAD REPORTED A LOST DOG IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR MAYBE HE COULD CALL SOMEONE WHO WOULD KNOW IF THERE WAS A LOST DOG REPORTED IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD. Q AND DID YOU ASK HIM FOR SOME HELP? A YEAH. I TOLD HIM -- I DIDN'T HAVE A LEASH -- AN EXTRA LEASH OR ANYTHING ON ME, SO I DIDN'T, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE DOG WAS GOING TO DO, SO I TOLD HIM ABOUT THE SITUATION, THAT THE DOG WAS LOOSE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, AND HE TOLD ME NOT -- NOT TO WORRY ABOUT IT, HE WOULD TAKE CARE OF IT AND THAT I SHOULD CONTINUE HOME AND I SAID "OKAY." Q WHAT HAPPENED THEN? A WELL, I CONTINUED WALKING TOWARDS -- TOWARD MY HOUSE, WALKING THEN DOWN TOWARDS GORHAM, BUT THE DOG STAYED WITH ME STILL. THE DOG CONTINUED TO STAY RIGHT NEXT TO MYSELF AND MY DOG. Q SO HE WOULDN'T STAY WITH THE POLICE OFFICER? A HE DIDN'T STAY WITH THE POLICE OFFICER. THE DOG WAS STILL INTENT ON STICKING WITH MYSELF AND MY DOG. Q DID THE DOG CONTINUE TO BARK AS YOU WENT HOME? A YES. THE DOG BARKED CONSIDERABLY AT THE CORNER OF GORHAM AND BUNDY. THIS WAS LIKE THE LOUDEST BARKING REALLY THAT IT DID DURING THE COURSE OF THE TIME THAT I WAS WITH IT. AND IT WENT ON FOR A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME THAN IT HAD BARKING AT THE INDIVIDUAL HOUSES. IT REALLY, YOU KNOW, BARKED AND HOWLED QUITE A BIT HERE, (INDICATING). RIGHT ABOUT HERE, (INDICATING). AGAIN, THIS IS MY HABIT. I CROSS THE STREET HERE. I CROSS -- I HAVE TO CROSS GORHAM AND I END UP CROSSING FROM THE EAST SIDE AND ENDING UP BACK ON THE WEST SIDE AT BUNDY, SO I CROSSED THE STREET HERE AND THE DOG STOOD AT THIS POINT HERE AND BARKED CONSIDERABLY AS MY DOG AND I CONTINUED TO WALK DOWN BUNDY TOWARDS MONTANA. Q CAN YOU LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR, SIR. YOU SEE WHERE THAT PINK ARROW IS? A THAT IS BASICALLY CORRECT EXCEPT IT IS THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STREET. Q OKAY. THAT YELLOW ARROW? A IT WAS ON THE -- AGAIN AT THIS POINT IT WAS THE WEST SIDE OF BUNDY. Q ON THE WEST SIDE OF BUNDY? A YES. MS. CLARK: CAN YOU MOVE THAT A LITTLE BIT TO THE LEFT, JOHN. A LITTLE BIT MORE. THE WITNESS: IT IS -- Q BY MS. CLARK: HOW IS THAT? A THAT IS PRETTY CLOSE. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CAN GET THE ARROW TO POINT FROM THE OTHER DIRECTION, FROM THE OTHER SIDE. Q OKAY? A BACK IT UP. A LITTLE TO THE LEFT. FURTHER TO THE LEFT. YEAH, LIKE THAT. AT THAT POINT THERE THE DOG BARKED CONSIDERABLY AS MY DOG AND I HEADED ON BUNDY. NOW BACK ON THE WEST SIDE OF BUNDY BACK TOWARDS MONTANA. Q OKAY. AND THEN DID YOU CONTINUE HOME? A I CONTINUED HOME, AND AT THAT POINT I WASN'T CERTAIN WHETHER THE DOG WOULD CONTINUE TO FOLLOW US, BECAUSE IT WAS BARKING AND THE POLICE OFFICER WAS THERE, BUT IT DID. IT STOPPED BARKING AFTER A MINUTE OR SO AND CAUGHT UP TO MYSELF AND MY DOG AND CONTINUED WITH US. Q AND WHEN YOU GOT -- SO WHEN YOU WALKED INTO YOUR APARTMENT BUILDING, WAS IT STILL FOLLOWING YOU? A YES, YES. Q NOW, AT YOUR BUILDING, THERE IS A COURTYARD THAT YOU WALK INTO FROM THE STREET? A YES. OUR BUILDING HAS A COURTYARD WITH A POOL. Q AND DID THE DOG FOLLOW YOU INTO THAT COURTYARD? A YES. Q IS YOUR APARTMENT -- WAS IT UPSTAIRS OR WAS IT DOWNSTAIRS? A I LIVE ON THE SECOND FLOOR OF MY APARTMENT COMPLEX. Q DID YOU WALK UP TO YOUR APARTMENT ON THE SECOND FLOOR? A YES. YES, I WALKED UP THE STAIRS TO MY APARTMENT. Q AND DID THE DOG FOLLOW YOU UP TO YOUR APARTMENT ON THE SECOND FLOOR? A YES, IT DID. IT FOLLOWED ME ALL THE WAY UP TO THE LANDING OUTSIDE OF MY APARTMENT. Q DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME YOU GOT HOME? A WELL, IT WAS APPROXIMATELY FIVE MINUTES AFTER ELEVEN O'CLOCK. I CAME IN THE DOOR AND I OPENED THE DOOR AND MY WIFE WAS SITTING AT THE COMPUTER AND BEHIND HER I SAW THE T.V. SET AND THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW WAS ON AND IT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THAT EPISODE AND I WAS RELIEVED THAT IT HADN'T TAKEN ME MUCH LONGER TO GET HOME THAN USUAL BECAUSE MY WIFE SOMETIMES WORRIES ABOUT ME IF I'M OUT MORE THAN A HALF HOUR. SHE KNOWS I HAVE THIS ROUTINE, SO IF I HAD BEEN OUT CONSIDERABLY LONGER, SHE MIGHT HAVE BEEN WORRIED, BUT SHE WASN'T. Q OKAY. SO THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW HAD JUST STARTED? A YEAH, IT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE EPISODE. Q AND DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME IT BEGAN -- THAT SHOW BEGAN ON SUNDAY NIGHT ON JUNE THE 12TH? A YES. THAT SHOW BEGINS AT ELEVEN O'CLOCK. Q DO YOU REMEMBER THE EPISODE THAT WAS ON? A YES, I REMEMBER. IT WAS AN EPISODE THAT I HAD SEEN PREVIOUSLY INVOLVING MARY DATING SOMEONE FROM A RIVAL STATION. Q THAT HAD JUST BEGUN? A IT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THAT PARTICULAR EPISODE. Q YOU SAID IT WAS APPROXIMATELY 11:05? A APPROXIMATELY THAT IS WHAT TIME IT WAS. Q DID YOU LET THE DOG INTO YOUR APARTMENT? A NO, I DIDN'T. AS I SAID PREVIOUSLY, I HAVE A CAT AND I DIDN'T WANT TO UPSET THE CAT BY BRINGING THE LARGE DOG IN RIGHT AT THAT POINT, SO I CLOSED THE DOOR BEHIND ME. THE DOG WAS ON THE LANDING OUTSIDE AND I HADN'T TOLD MY WIFE YET, SO I TOLD MY WIFE LINDA THAT THIS BIG AKITA HAD FOLLOWED ME HOME. Q AND WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE DOG? A THE DOG WAS ON THE LANDING OUTSIDE MY APARTMENT AND I TOLD LINDA THAT THE DOG HAD FOLLOWED ME HOME AND SHE SAID SOMETHING LIKE "YOU ARE KIDDING?" AND I SAID "NO" AND I OPENED THE DOOR AND SHOWED HER THAT THE DOG WAS STANDING THERE AT THE LANDING TO OUR APARTMENT. Q IT JUST STAYED THERE? A IT JUST STAYED THERE. Q OKAY. A AND, UMM, SHE WENT OUT TO SEE THAT IN FACT THERE WAS -- THAT IT WAS REAL, THERE WAS THIS BIG AKITA STANDING ON LANDING TO OUR APARTMENT. Q WHY WAS THAT SO STRANGE, THAT THE DOG -- THAT THIS DOG WOULD STAY THERE ON THE LANDING? A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) MR. DOUGLAS: CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR. MS. CLARK: SORRY? MR. DOUGLAS: CALLS FOR SPECULATION. THE COURT: ARE YOU HANDLING THIS WITNESS, MR. DOUGLAS? MR. DOUGLAS: YES, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. Q BY MS. CLARK: WHY DID YOU THINK THAT IT WAS STRANGE? A IT WAS UNUSUAL. THE COURT: I WILL OVERRULE THE OBJECTION. GO AHEAD. MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY? THE COURT: LET ME THINK ABOUT IT. MS. CLARK: I THOUGHT MAYBE I THOUGHT OF A BETTER QUESTION. Q WHY DID YOU THINK THAT WAS STRANGE? A I THOUGHT IT WAS UNUSUAL FOR A DOG TO, YOU KNOW, ATTACH ITSELF QUICKLY TO -- TO ANOTHER PERSON -- TO A PERSON THAT IT DIDN'T KNOW. I HAD NEVER SEEN THE DOG BEFORE, SO IT WAS -- IT WAS STRANGE THAT THE DOG WOULD STAY WITH US. Q ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE -- WITH HOW MUCH AN AKITA COSTS? A I KNOW THAT THEY ARE EXPENSIVE DOGS. Q DID IT SEEM UNUSUAL THAT AN EXPENSIVE DOG LIKE THAT WOULD BE OUT RUNNING AROUND ALONE? A ABSOLUTELY. THE DOG SEEMED WELL-BRED AND WELL CARED FOR, AND AGAIN, THE COLLAR WAS VERY EXPENSIVE, SO I KNEW THAT THIS WAS NOT SOME STRAY STREET DOG, BUT THAT THIS WAS AN EXPENSIVE DOG. Q OKAY. SO WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE DOG? A WELL, I HAD -- I HAD SPOKEN TO THE POLICE OFFICER AS WE WERE COMING HOME ALONG BETWEEN -- AS I WAS WALKING HOME ON BUNDY BETWEEN -- I'M SORRY. AS I WAS WALKING ON MONTANA BETWEEN BUNDY AND MY HOUSE, THE POLICE OFFICER HAD STOPPED AGAIN SEEING THAT THE DOG WAS NOT STAYING IN THE AREA, BUT WAS FOLLOWING ME, AND I SPOKE TO HIM AND HE SAID, "IT IS OBVIOUS THE DOG WANTS TO FOLLOW YOU. WHY DON'T YOU CONTINUE HOME," AND HE SAID HE WOULD CALL ANIMAL CONTROL AND THEY WOULD COME BY TO TAKE CARE OF THE DOG. AND I SAID THAT WAS FINE. I GAVE HIM MY NAME, ADDRESS AND PHONE NUMBER AND WENT HOME. AND SO AFTER SHOWING MY WIFE THAT I HAD THE DOG, WE GOT A SPARE LEASH AND WENT OUT TO STAND AT -- TO SIT ON THE STEP LEADING TO MY APARTMENT COMPLEX ON MONTANA AND WAIT FOR THE PEOPLE FROM ANIMAL CONTROL TO SHOW UP. Q DID THEY SHOW UP? A NO, THEY DID NOT SHOW UP. Q SO WHAT DID YOU DO? A SO NOW THAT WE HAD THIS SPARE LEASH ON THE DOG, WE DECIDED TO WALK THE DOG BACK TOWARDS WHERE I FOUND IT. MAYBE THE PEOPLE HAD COME -- HAD NOTICED THAT IT WAS MISSING AND HAD COME OUT BY THAT TIME, SO OUR INTENTION WAS TO TAKE THE DOG BACK TO THE CORNER OF BUNDY AND DOROTHY. Q AND WHAT HAPPENED? A WELL, AS I WALKED THE DOG TOWARDS BUNDY ALONG MONTANA, THE DOG PULLED BACK. THE DOG SHIED AWAY FROM GOING TOWARD BUNDY. IT KEPT PULLING BACK TOWARDS MY APARTMENT COMPLEX. Q IT WAS PULLING BACK? A IT WAS PULLING BACK. IT WAS NOT ALLOWING ME TO WALK IT TOWARDS BUNDY. IT WAS PULLING AWAY. Q CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THE WEATHER WAS LIKE THAT NIGHT? A IT WAS -- IT WAS A RELATIVELY COOL NIGHT. IT HAD BEEN HOT DURING THE DAY, BUT IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD, SO CLOSE TO THE OCEAN, IT GETS MUCH COOLER AT NIGHT, AND THIS WAS NO EXCEPTION, IT HAD COOLED DOWN CONSIDERABLY FROM THE DAY. Q HOW WAS THE DOG BEHAVING? A WELL, AT THIS POINT, WITH THE DOG PULLING AWAY, AGAIN THIS WAS ALSO UNUSUAL. I NOTICED AT THAT POINT THAT THE DOG WAS DEHYDRATED, THAT IT WAS PANTING, THAT ITS TONGUE WAS DRY, AND IT SEEMED TO NEED WATER, BECAUSE AT THIS POINT IT WASN'T BARKING ANY LONGER; IT WAS CONTINUALLY PANTING. Q SO IT SEEMED DEHYDRATED? A YES, IT DID. Q LIKE IT NEEDED WATER? A YES. Q SO WHAT DID YOU DO? A SO WE WALKED THE DOG BACK TO THE COURTYARD OF MY BUILDING AND I WENT UPSTAIRS TO GET SOME WATER FOR THE DOG. Q DID THE DOG DRINK? A YEAH. I WENT UPSTAIRS. I TOOK MY DOG'S DISH, FILLED IT WITH WATER, AND AS I WAS GOING BACK I NOTICED THAT MY LIGHT ON MY ANSWERING MACHINE WAS BLINKING, BUT I DIDN'T CHECK THE MESSAGE OR ANYTHING. I WENT DOWNSTAIRS, GAVE THE DOG THE BOWL OF WATER, AND IT DRANK CONSIDERABLY. IT DRANK QUITE A LOT. Q NOW, WHEN YOU WERE DOWN IN THE COURTYARD, WAS THERE MORE LIGHT? A YES. THE COURTYARD IN MY BUILDING IS FAIRLY WELL-LIT. THERE IS LIGHTS ALL AROUND AND THERE IS LIGHTS COMING UP FROM THE POOL, SO IT IS FAIRLY WELL-LIT. Q AS OPPOSED TO THAT DARK AREA WHERE YOU FOUND THE DOG ON THE STREET? A YES. THERE WAS MUCH MORE THAN LIGHT IN THE COURTYARD AREA. Q AT THAT TIME DID YOU TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK MORE CLOSELY AT THE DOG? A YES. AT THIS POINT I WANTED TO CHECK THE PAWS AGAIN TO SEE IF IT WAS CUT OR BLEEDING, IF THERE WAS A PIECE OF GLASS WEDGED IN ONE OF THE PAWS, AND THAT WAS WHERE THE BLOOD THE COME FROM. AND SO I CHECKED -- AND THE DOG WAS, YOU KNOW, WAS GETTING A LITTLE BIT CALMER, IT WAS NOT SO DEHYDRATED, SO WITH THAT OPPORTUNITY I CHECKED THE DOG'S PAWS. Q DID YOU CHECK ALL FOUR PAWS? A I CHECKED ALL FOUR PAWS. Q DID YOU SEE BLOOD ON ALL FOUR PAWS? A THERE WAS BLOOD ON ALL FOUR PAWS. Q ON THE LEGS DID YOU SEE BLOOD? A SOME OF THE LEGS HAD BLOOD SPLATTERED UP THE LEGS. Q AND DID YOU FIND ANY INJURY ON THE DOG THAT COULD BE THE SOURCE OF THAT BLOOD? A NO, THERE WAS NO INJURY. HE LET ME TOUCH THE PAWS AND HE LET ME EXAMINE THEM AND IT DIDN'T SHY AWAY AS IF IT WAS IN PAIN. THERE WAS NO GLASS IN ANY OF THE PAWS AND IT WASN'T LIMPING OR WALKING IN A STRANGE WAY AT ANY POINT. Q YOU INDICATED BEFORE THAT THE BELLY AND EVEN THE CHEST OF THE DOG, AT FIRST WHEN YOU SAW IT IN THE DARK AREA OF BUNDY AND DOROTHY, SEEMED TO BE MUDDY? A YES. Q COULD YOU TELL AT THIS POINT IN THE BETTER LIGHT OF THE COURTYARD WHETHER IT WAS MUDDY AND DIRTY OR BLOODY ON THE CHEST AND THE STOMACH? A IT WAS -- IT WAS DIRTY AND IT WAS DRIED BROWN STUFF AND I -- I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT COLOR BLOOD TURNS AFTER IT DRIES, BUT IT WAS THIS DRIED BROWN STUFF THAT I FIGURED WAS EITHER BLOOD -- EITHER MUD OR MORE BLOOD. Q SO AS TO THAT PART OF THE DOG, YOU COULDN'T TELL? A I COULDN'T TELL BECAUSE IT WAS BROWN AT THIS POINT AND IT WAS DRIED AT THIS POINT. Q DID YOU REMEMBER SEEING ANY MUD ON THE LEGS OF THE DOG? A NO. Q NO MUD? A NO. Q ONLY BLOOD? A ONLY THE BLOOD THAT I SAW. Q ALL RIGHT. AT SOME POINT DID YOU HAVE CONTACT WITH ANIMAL CONTROL? A WELL, I HAD SEEN THE LIGHT BLINKING ON MY ANSWERING MACHINE WHEN I WENT TO GET THE WATER, SO I STAYED DOWN WITH THE DOG WHILE IT DRANK, AND MY WIFE WENT UPSTAIRS TO CHECK THE MESSAGE AND SHE CAME DOWN AND SAID IT WAS -- MR. DOUGLAS: YOUR HONOR, HEARSAY. THE COURT: OKAY. WHAT SHE SAID IS HEARSAY. MS. CLARK: RIGHT. Q YOUR WIFE CAME DOWN AND TOLD YOU SOMETHING? A UH-HUH. Q BASED ON WHAT SHE TOLD YOU, WHAT DID YOU DO? A I WENT BACK UPSTAIRS AND LISTENED TO THE MESSAGE AND IT WAS FROM ANIMAL CONTROL. MR. DOUGLAS: OBJECTION. HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR. MS. CLARK: SUBMIT IT. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE ANSWER -- THE PART OF THE ANSWER THAT THE CALL WAS FROM ANIMAL CONTROL, THAT IS STRICKEN. THE JURY IS ORDERED TO DISREGARD THAT. MISS CLARK. Q BY MS. CLARK: YOU GOT A PHONE CALL? A YES. Q YOU SPOKE TO SOMEONE? A YES. Q BASED ON WHAT THAT PERSON TOLD YOU, WHAT DID YOU DO? A WELL, BASED ON THAT INFORMATION I KNEW THAT I HAD TO EITHER BRING THE DOG TO ANIMAL CONTROL MYSELF BY MIDNIGHT OR KEEP THE DOG OVERNIGHT. Q OKAY. DID YOU WANT TO TAKE THE DOG TO ANIMAL CONTROL? A I DID NOT FEEL GOOD AT THAT POINT ABOUT TAKING THE DOG TO ANIMAL CONTROL BECAUSE I KNEW THAT THE DOG WOULD BE LEFT THERE ALONE OVERNIGHT, THAT THERE WOULD BE NO ONE THERE TO WATCH THE DOG. I DIDN'T KNOW IF THEY WOULD FEED THE DOG BEFORE THE PERSON LEFT ANIMAL CONTROL. I SIMPLY KNEW THAT THE DOG WOULD BE LEFT ALONE OVERNIGHT AT ANIMAL CONTROL. Q OKAY. SO WHAT DID YOU DO AT THAT POINT? A I WENT DOWN -- BACK DOWNSTAIRS WITH THE DOG -- I MEAN, BACK DOWNSTAIRS TO THE DOG AND CONSIDERED VARIOUS OPTIONS. ONE WOULD BE TO BRING THE DOG INSIDE, MAYBE LOCK MY CAT IN ANOTHER ROOM AND KEEP THE DOG INSIDE. ANOTHER OPTION WOULD HAVE BEEN TO TIE THE DOG UP IN THE COURTYARD AND LET IT STAY THERE OVERNIGHT. THAT CONCERNED ME BECAUSE OF THE BARKING THAT IT HAD DONE. IF IT STARTED BARKING OR HOWLING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, IT MIGHT DISTURB SOME OF MY NEIGHBORS. THE THIRD OPTION WOULD BE ONCE AGAIN TO TRY TO WALK IT BACK TO THE CORNER OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY, AND I WAS CONSIDERING THOSE OPTIONS. I KNEW AT THAT POINT THAT I WAS NOT GOING TO TAKE THE DOG TO ANIMAL CONTROL MYSELF, THAT I WAS GOING TO KEEP THE DOG OVERNIGHT. Q SO WHERE WERE YOU SEATED AT THAT TIME? A I WAS STANDING ACTUALLY IN THE COURTYARD OF MY BUILDING IN FRONT OF THE STAIRCASE THAT LEADS UP TO MY APARTMENT. I HAD PLACED THE BOWL AT THE FOOT OF THE STAIRS AND THE DOG AT THAT POINT WAS LYING DOWN. Q OKAY. DID SOMEONE THAT YOU KNEW FROM YOUR APARTMENT BUILDING APPEAR IN THE COURTYARD? A YES. AT THAT POINT SUKRU BOZTEPE, MY DOWNSTAIRS NEIGHBOR, ENTERED FROM THE BACK ENTRANCE FROM MY APARTMENT COMPLEX. MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO SPELL THAT FOR THE REPORTER. REPORTER OLSON: I HAVE IT. Q BY MS. CLARK: SUKRU BOZTEPE SHOWED UP AND KNEW HIM AS A NEIGHBOR OF YOURS IN THAT BUILDING? A YES. SUKRU IS MY DOWNSTAIRS NEIGHBOR AND WE ARE VERY CLOSE. WE HAD A GARAGE SALE EARLIER THAT DAY AND HE TAKES CARE OF MY PETS WHEN WE ARE ON VACATION. WE ARE VERY CLOSE. Q WHAT TIME WAS THAT WHEN YOU SAW HIM ARRIVE? A THAT WOULD BE APPROXIMATELY 11:40. Q WAS HE ALONE WHEN YOU SAW HIM FIRST? A WHEN I FIRST SAW HIM HE WAS BY HIMSELF COMING FROM THE BACK ENTRANCE TO OUR APARTMENT COMPLEX. Q AND HE HAS A WIFE? A YES. Q AND HER NAME IS? A HER NAME IS BETTINA RASMUSSEN. MS. CLARK: DO YOU HAVE THAT ONE, CHRIS? REPORTER OLSON: (NODS HEAD UP AND DOWN.) Q BY MS. CLARK: DID SHE COME OUT ALSO? A SHE CAME OUT FROM THEIR APARTMENT. THEY ARE OUR DOWNSTAIRS NEIGHBORS. WE HAVE ALMOST IDENTICAL APARTMENTS. OURS IS ON THE SECOND FLOOR AND THEIRS IS ON THE FIRST FLOOR. SO AT THAT POINT I WAS THERE WITH MY WIFE AND THE DOG VIRTUALLY IN FRONT OF THEIR APARTMENT DOOR, SO HE CAME HOME AND SHE CAME OUT AND HE ASKED WHERE I GOT THE DOG, WHERE THIS DOG HAD COME FROM. Q ALL RIGHT. THEN DID YOU TELL HIM EVERYTHING THAT YOU HAVE TOLD US ABOUT HOW YOU FOUND THE DOG? A YES. I EXPLAINED THE SITUATION UP TO THIS POINT AND THE FACT THAT WE DIDN'T WANT TO TAKE THE DOG TO ANIMAL CONTROL. MS. CLARK: OKAY. THE COURT: MISS CLARK, DO YOU HAVE MUCH MORE AT THIS POINT? MS. CLARK: I DO. I MEAN NOT A LOT MORE, BUT -- THE COURT: ENOUGH? MS. CLARK: YEAH. THE COURT: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS THEN FOR THE NOON HOUR AT THIS TIME. PLEASE REMEMBER CAREFULLY MY ADMONITION TO YOU. DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONG YOURSELVES, FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, ALLOW ANYBODY TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE CASE OR CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO YOU. WE WILL STAND IN RECESS UNTIL 1:45. MR. SCHWAB, YOU ARE ORDERED TO RETURN HERE AT 1:45. THE WITNESS: I UNDERSTAND. THE COURT: DON'T DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANYBODY, EXCEPT FOR THE ATTORNEYS IN THE CASE. THANK YOU, SIR. WE ARE IN RECESS. (AT 12:03 P.M. THE NOON RECESS WAS TAKEN UNTIL 1:45 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.) LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1995 1:45 P.M. DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE APPEARANCES: (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.) (JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, COUNSEL. BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. MR. SIMPSON IS AGAIN PRESENT BEFORE THE COURT WITH COUNSEL. MR. BAILEY, ARE YOU STANDING TO ADDRESS THE COURT? MR. BAILEY: I HAVE A MATTER, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: WHAT IS THAT, SIR? MR. BAILEY: DO YOU HAVE ANY TIME IN MIND TO ARGUE THE MATTER OF THE WITNESS WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING IN CHAMBERS? THE COURT: REFRESH MY RECOLLECTION. MR. BAILEY: THE LADY -- THE COURT: OH, YES. I HAD THOUGHT THAT MATTER WAS TAKEN OFF CALENDAR. THAT WAS THE IMPRESSION I WAS LEFT WITH THE LAST TIME WE TALKED. MR. BAILEY: I THINK THE LAST TIME -- MS. CLARK: I CHECKED YESTERDAY. I WAS TOLD IT WAS NOT PUT BACK ON CALENDAR. MR. BAILEY: WHAT'S THAT? MS. CLARK: I CHECKED YESTERDAY. I WAS TOLD IT HAD NOT BEEN PUT BACK ON CALENDAR. THE COURT: YOU WANT TO LITIGATE THAT ISSUE? MR. BAILEY: I WOULD LIKE TO ARGUE THE ISSUE AT SOME POINT BECAUSE WE ARE TRYING TO ARRANGE A DAY ON THE WEEKEND FOR ACCOMPLISHMENT OF THAT. THE COURT: WHY DON'T WE CHAT AT THE NEXT BREAK. MR. BAILEY: I JUST WANTED TO BRING THAT TO YOUR HONOR'S ATTENTION. THE COURT: I GUESS THAT WAS SUFFICIENTLY CRYPTIC. ANYTHING ELSE BEFORE WE INVITE THE JURORS TO REJOIN US? ALL RIGHT. DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE THE JURY PLEASE. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: MR. SCHWAB, BE SEATED, PLEASE. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, BE SEATED. THANK YOU. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE HAVE NOW BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL. GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. THE JURY: GOOD AFTERNOON. STEVEN SCHWAB, THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE NOON RECESS, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS: THE COURT: MR. STEVEN SCHWAB IS ON THE WITNESS STAND UNDERGOING DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MISS CLARK. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. SCHWAB. YOU ARE REMINDED THAT YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH, SIR. THE WITNESS: OF COURSE. THE COURT: MISS CLARK, YOU MAY RESUME YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MS. CLARK: Q GOOD AFTERNOON. ALL RIGHT. I BELIEVE WHEN YOU LEFT OFF, MR. SCHWAB, YOU WERE INDICATING TO US THAT YOU SAW SUKRU COME TO YOU IN THE COURTYARD WHERE YOU HAD THE DOG, YOU AND YOUR WIFE WERE WITH THE DOG AND THEN BETTINA CAME OUT OF THE APARTMENT. A YES. THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND YOU SAID THAT WAS ABOUT 11:40? A APPROXIMATELY 11:40, YES. Q AND YOU SAID THAT YOU EXPLAINED TO HIM WHAT HAD HAPPENED WITH THE DOG THAT NIGHT? A YES. I HAD TOLD HIM BRIEFLY THE EVENTS LEADING UP TO THAT PARTICULAR POINT IN THE EVENING AND MY DESIRE NOT TO RETURN -- NOT TO BRING THE DOG TO THE ANIMAL SHELTER AND MY CONCERN NOT BRINGING IT INTO MY APARTMENT. Q DID YOU TELL HIM WHERE YOU HAD FOUND THE DOG? A YEAH. YES. HE -- YOU KNOW, HE LIVES IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD TOO. SO I TOLD HIM APPROXIMATELY WHERE I HAD FIRST FOUND THE DOG. Q SO DID YOU HAVE A DISCUSSION WITH HIM ABOUT WHAT TO DO WITH THE DOG THEN? A YES. WE HAD A BRIEF DISCUSSION IN WHICH I EXPLAINED THAT WHY I DIDN'T WANT THE DOG TO GO TO THE ANIMAL SHELTER WHERE THEY WOULD LOCK IT IN A CAGE OVERNIGHT, AND HE OFFERED TO TAKE THE DOG FOR THE NIGHT. Q AND DID HE TAKE THE DOG? A YES. HE TOOK THE DOG AND WE AGREED THAT I WOULD GET IT BACK FROM HIM IN THE MORNING SO THAT I COULD THEN PUT UP POSTERS FOR, YOU KNOW, SAYING THAT THERE'S A LOST DOG, MAYBE TAKE A PICTURE OF THE DOG AND POST THAT IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD SO WE COULD FIND THE OWNER. SO WE AGREED THAT I WOULD GIVE HIM THE DOG OVERNIGHT AND I WOULD GET IT BACK FROM HIM WHEN -- BEFORE HE LEFT FOR WORK IN THE MORNING. Q DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE WALKING YOUR OWN DOG, DO YOU RECALL SEEING A MAN AND A WOMAN WALKING TOGETHER AT SOME POINT ON YOUR ROUTE? A YES. THAT PARTICULAR NIGHT, I DIDN'T -- I ONLY -- I DIDN'T RUN INTO TOO MANY PEOPLE. I RAN INTO THESE TWO PEOPLE -- IF I COULD SHOW YOU. Q PLEASE. A YES. UMM, AS I WAS WALKING HERE ALONG GORHAM, I PASSED A COUPLE COMING FROM THE OTHER DIRECTION, A MAN AND A WOMAN. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEIR RELATIONSHIP WAS, BUT I PASSED THESE TWO PEOPLE, AND THE WOMAN SAW MY DOG WAS VERY CUTE AND BENT DOWN TO PET IT. YOU KNOW, I SPOKE BRIEFLY TO THEM, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE ASKING ME HOW OLD IS YOUR DOG, WHAT'S HER NAME, THAT KIND OF THING. AND SHE PETTED MY DOG AND THEN THEY CONTINUED IN THIS DIRECTION ON GORHAM AND I CONTINUED TO GO IN THE OTHER DIRECTION TOWARDS AMHURST (INDICATING). Q COULD YOU TELL US IF THAT COUPLE WAS YOUNG OR OLD? A THEY WERE YOUNGISH, YOU KNOW. I COULDN'T TELL YOU THE -- YOU KNOW, THEIR EXACT AGES, BUT THEY SEEMED YOUNGER THAN ME. SO, UMM, LIKE IN THEIR 20'S OR SO. Q AND COULD YOU DESCRIBE THEM AT ALL? A IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO -- IF I MET THEM TODAY, I DOUBT I WOULD BE ABLE TO SAY THESE ARE THE TWO PEOPLE WHO I SAW THAT NIGHT. I SAW THEM VERY BRIEFLY AND AT NIGHT. Q OKAY. A SO IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR ME. Q COULD YOU TELL HOW TALL THEY WERE? WERE THEY VERY LARGE PEOPLE, MEDIUM-SIZE, SMALL PEOPLE? A ABOUT AVERAGE. THE WOMAN MAY HAVE BEEN BLOND, BUT I'M NOT POSITIVE BECAUSE IT WAS NIGHT. Q OKAY. SHE WAS CAUCASIAN? A YES. THEY WERE BOTH CAUCASIAN AND I BELIEVE THE MAN WAS DARK-HAIRED AS OPPOSED TO THE WOMAN WHO I THOUGHT WAS BLONDISH. Q OKAY. AND DID YOU SEE THAT COUPLE AGAIN LATER ON? A YEAH. THAT WAS THE STRANGE THING. RIGHT AFTER I HAD WALKED DOWN GORHAM TO AMHURST AND COME AROUND UP DOROTHY AND ENCOUNTERED THE DOG HERE (INDICATING) AND WALKED WITH THE DOG -- AND AS I SAID, I CROSSED BACK TO THE WEST SIDE OF BUNDY HERE. AS I WAS WALKING ALONG HERE WITH THE TWO DOGS, I ENCOUNTERED THAT SAME COUPLE COMING THE OTHER DIRECTION AND THE GIRL -- THE WOMAN SAID TO ME, OH, NOW, YOU HAVE TWO DOGS, AND I SAID YES, BUT ONE IS JUST A FRIEND OF THE FAMILY, AND THEY CONTINUED ON AND I CONTINUED ON AND THAT WAS THE LAST TIME I SAW THEM. Q AND WERE THEY WALKING SOUTHBOUND ON BUNDY AT THAT TIME? A YES. THEY WERE WALKING -- THEY WERE WALKING -- THEY WERE WALKING IN THIS DIRECTION. SO I WAS PASSING THEM AS I WAS COMING THIS WAY AND AS THEY WERE GOING SOUTH, YES (INDICATING). Q DO YOU RECALL GIVING THE POLICE A STATEMENT IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS OF JUNE THE 13TH? A YES. Q DO YOU RECALL APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU GAVE THAT STATEMENT? A IT WAS APPROXIMATELY 5:00 A.M. I REMEMBER HEARING THE POUNDING ON THE -- MY DOOR. MY DOG STARTED BARKING. I HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS GOING ON, AND I LOOKED AT THE CLOCK AND REMEMBER THINKING, MY GOD, IT'S 5:00 A.M., WHAT -- WHY IS SOMEONE POUNDING ON MY DOOR. Q AND WAS IT THE POLICE? A YES. WHEN I GOT TO THE DOOR, THERE WERE TWO POLICE DETECTIVES AND -- STANDING AT THE DOOR. Q AND DID THEY ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED THE NIGHT BEFORE? A YES. THEY SAID THEY NEEDED TO TALK TO ME IN CONNECTION WITH A HOMICIDE, THE DOG WAS SOMEHOW CONNECTED WITH THE HOMICIDE. I WAS NOT EVEN DRESSED AT THAT POINT. SO I ASKED THEM TO WAIT DOWNSTAIRS BY THAT PATIO AREA THAT I SPOKE ABOUT EARLIER. I WENT IN AND GOT DRESSED AND WOKE MY WIFE AND EXPLAINED TO HER WHAT WAS GOING ON, AND WE -- MY WIFE AND I CAME DOWNSTAIRS AND THEY WERE DOWNSTAIRS WITH BETTINA AND SUKRU AND I SAT DOWN WITH MY WIFE AS WELL AND WE SPOKE TO THEM BRIEFLY. Q OKAY. WHAT WAS YOUR STATE OF MIND AT THAT TIME? A I WAS VERY CONFUSED. I WAS VERY SCARED TO FIND OUT THAT THE DOG WAS SOMEHOW CONNECTED TO A HOMICIDE. I, YOU KNOW, HAD NO IDEA THE NIGHT BEFORE THAT, YOU KNOW, THE BLOOD WAS A PERSON'S BLOOD. IT WAS VERY DISTURBING TO HEAR THAT. Q AND WHEN YOU -- DID YOU TELL THEM HOW YOU HAD FOUND THE DOG? A YES. I BRIEFLY SAID THAT I HAD FOUND THIS LOST DOG THE NIGHT BEFORE WHILE WALKING MY OWN DOG. Q DID YOU TELL THEM YOUR TIME ESTIMATE OF WHEN YOU SAW THAT DOG AT DOROTHY AND BUNDY? A WELL, THEY HAD ASKED ME AT WHAT TIME -- APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME I FOUND THE DOG, AND I WAS VERY CONFUSED AT THAT POINT AND I RATTLED OFF A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT TIMES, BUT I WAS NOT CLEAR AS TO WHAT TIME THE EVENTS HAD TAKEN PLACE. I WASN'T -- I WASN'T CLEAR WHAT DAY IT WAS AT THAT POINT. Q AND WHY WAS THAT? A WELL, AS I SAID, ROUTINE CHANGES BASED WHETHER IT'S A WEEKDAY OR A WEEK NIGHT. AND THIS HAPPENED TO BE MONDAY MORNING. I KNEW I HAD, YOU KNOW, I HAD TO WORK THE NEXT DAY, BUT I WASN'T CLEAR, SO CLEAR AS TO WHETHER IT WAS A WEEKDAY ON WEEK NIGHT THE NIGHT BEFORE. SO I WAS HAVING TROUBLE REMEMBERING WHAT TIME I HAD STARTED MY WALK ON THAT PARTICULAR EVENING. AGAIN, I WAS NOT CLEAR AT THAT POINT AS TO WHAT DAY OF THE WEEK IT EVEN WAS THE NIGHT BEFORE. Q OKAY. SO THEY HAD WOKEN YOU UP FROM SLEEPING AT THE TIME THEY KNOCKED AT YOUR DOOR AT 5:00 A.M.? A YES. I WAS SOUNDLY ASLEEP BEFORE THAT. Q SO YOU WERE CONFUSED? A I WAS CONFUSED AND SCARED. I -- YOU KNOW, IT WAS VERY SHOCKING TO HEAR -- TO HEAR ABOUT THIS, TO HEAR THAT SOMEONE HAD DIED, THAT THE PEOPLE WHO OWNED THE DOG WERE NOT HERE, WERE NOT, YOU KNOW, AROUND. Q AND SO WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU TOLD THE POLICE AT THAT TIME WHEN YOU WERE CONFUSED AND DISORIENTED -- WHAT TIME DID YOU TELL THE POLICE THAT YOU HAD GONE -- YOU HAD FOUND THE DOG? A FIRST -- THE FIRST TIME THAT I MENTIONED WAS 11:30 AND THEN I SAID NO, IT WAS -- IT MUST HAVE BEEN AROUND 11:00. I WAS TRYING TO GET A FIX ON IT VAGUELY. AND AS I SAID, BETTINA AND SUKRU AND MY WIFE WERE THERE AND THERE WAS A LOT OF CROSSING AND CROSS TALKING GOING ON, YOU KNOW, NO, I SAW THEN, THAT KIND OF STUFF. SO I WASN'T CLEAR. BUT THOSE WERE THE TIMES I MENTIONED INITIALLY. Q AND DID IT BECOME CLEAR TO YOU UPON COMMON REFLECTION WHEN YOU WERE ABLE TO GATHER YOUR WITS WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU SAW THE DOG? A YES. I MEAN, AFTER I WENT -- AFTER THIS BRIEF INTERVIEW, I WENT BACK TO BED AND THE NEXT MORNING AND DAY, I THEN REMEMBERED MORE CLEARLY WHAT THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS WAS. AND I WAS, YOU KNOW -- AND I WAS DISAPPOINTED IN MYSELF NOT BEING CLEARER WITH THE POLICE THAT NIGHT. Q AND DID YOU MAKE SOME EFFORT TO TELL THE POLICE THAT YOU HAD MADE A MISTAKE? A YES. AT THAT POINT, WHEN I REALIZED THAT MY STATEMENT WAS INACCURATE, I CALLED THE POLICE -- I CALLED THE POLICE ON THE PHONE. I TRIED -- I WAS TRYING 911 AND THE LOCAL POLICE NUMBER IN BRENTWOOD. I DON'T REMEMBER WHICH NUMBER I GOT THROUGH ON, BUT EVENTUALLY I GOT THROUGH TO SOMEONE AND EXPLAINED THAT I WAS A WITNESS TO THE MURDER THAT HAD TAKEN PLACE THE NIGHT BEFORE AND THAT THE POLICE HAD COME BY, BUT I HAD GIVEN THEM A VERY INACCURATE STATEMENT. Q AND WHAT DID THEY TELL YOU? A THEY TOOK DOWN MY NAME AND NUMBER AND SAID THAT SOMEONE WOULD GET BACK TO ME. Q OKAY. AND DID YOU TESTIFY AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING IN THIS MATTER? A YES, I DID. Q AND DID YOU TESTIFY TO THE EVENTS THAT YOU'VE TESTIFIED TO TODAY BEFORE THIS JURY? A YES. Q AND TO THE ACCURATE TIME THAT YOU RECALLED WHEN YOU REFLECTED UPON IT FURTHER LATER IN THE DAY? A YES. Q ON JUNE THE 13TH? A YES. MS. CLARK: NOTHING FURTHER. THE COURT: MR. DOUGLAS. MR. DOUGLAS: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON. MR. DOUGLAS: GOOD AFTERNOON. THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DOUGLAS: Q MR. SCHWAB, GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR. A GOOD AFTERNOON. Q HAVE YOU HAD A CHANCE TO REVIEW ANY DOCUMENTS PRIOR TO TESTIFYING TODAY? A WHEN I RECEIVED MY SUBPOENA, I GOT A COPY OF MY TESTIMONY FROM THE PRELIMINARY HEARING THAT CAME WITH THE SUBPOENA. Q AND YOU HAD A CHANCE TO LOOK THAT OVER, SIR? A I LOOKED IT OVER, YES. Q DID YOU ALSO HAVE A CHANCE TO LOOK OVER THE STATEMENT THAT YOU HAD GIVEN TO THE OFFICER ABOUT WHICH YOU SPOKE? A NO. Q YOU'VE HAD A COUPLE OF MEETINGS WITH REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE? A I WAS CALLED IN YESTERDAY AND I SPOKE TO MARCIA CLARK AND TO CHERI YESTERDAY WHILE I WAS WAITING IN THE INTERVIEW ROOM. Q HAVE YOU HAD OCCASION TO SPEAK TO ANYONE ELSE ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY FROM THE D.A.'S OFFICE? A NO. Q NOW, THE INTERVIEW THAT YOU HAD WITH THE OFFICER OCCURRED WHAT DAY? A THAT WAS JUNE 13TH. Q AND WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN APPROXIMATELY 5:30 IN THE MORNING? A I -- THE ONLY TIME I LOOKED AT THE CLOCK WAS WHEN I WAS FIRST WOKEN UP. I LOOKED AT THE CLOCK ON MY NIGHTSTAND, AND I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT TIME THAT IT SAID, BUT I REMEMBER THINKING, MY GOD, WHO COULD IT BE, IT'S 5:00 A.M. SO THAT'S WHAT I RECALL. Q DID YOU EVER HAVE A CHANCE TO REVIEW A COPY OF THE STATEMENT THAT WAS TAKEN OF YOUR INTERVIEW? A I WAS SHOWN THE STATEMENT AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING BRIEFLY. Q DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT TIME THE STATEMENT SAID THAT OR WHAT DAY THE STATEMENT SAID THAT THE INTERVIEW OCCURRED? A NO. MR. DOUGLAS: CAN I JUST SHOW HIM SOMETHING, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: YES. Q BY MR. DOUGLAS: I WANTED TO SHOW YOU A DOCUMENT AND ASK YOU TO LOOK IT OVER AND TO READ IT TO YOURSELF. A (THE WITNESS COMPLIES.) Q IS THAT A ONE-PAGE STATEMENT CONCERNING THE INTERVIEW THAT YOU GAVE? A IT'S A ONE-PAGE STATEMENT. I DON'T KNOW WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN OR WHAT IT WAS WRITTEN BASED ON. I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT. Q AND WHAT DATE DOES IT SAY THAT THE INTERVIEW ACTUALLY OCCURRED? A SAYS 6-17-94. Q AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN FRIDAY, JUNE 17TH, CORRECT? A IT SAYS JUNE 17TH, BUT-- Q AND THAT WOULD BE INCORRECT? A I DON'T KNOW WHEN THIS STATEMENT WAS WRITTEN. SO IF IT'S MEANT TO REFLECT WHAT I SAID ON THE 13TH, THEN SAYING THE 17TH WOULD BE WRONG. BUT I DON'T KNOW WHEN THIS WAS WRITTEN OR IN REFERENCE TO WHAT. Q OKAY. DID YOU EVER HAVE AN INTERVIEW WITH A DETECTIVE ROBERTS ON JUNE THE 17TH? A I DON'T RECALL MEETING A DETECTIVE ROBERTS AND I DON'T RECALL TALKING TO ANYONE ON JUNE 17TH. Q YOU RECALL TALKING TO AN OFFICER ON THE 13TH? A TWO OFFICERS. Q DO YOU RECALL ANY OTHER NAMES? A NO. I DID NOT GET THEIR NAMES. Q TO THE EXTENT THAT THIS DOCUMENT SUGGESTS THAT YOUR INTERVIEW WAS ON THE 17TH, IT WOULD BE INCORRECT? A AGAIN, IF IT'S SUPPOSED TO REFER TO THAT INTERVIEW WITH THE TWO DETECTIVES, THEN -- THEN -- I DON'T KNOW -- AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS IS IN REFERENCE TO. SO YOU'RE ASKING ME TO SAY IF IT'S ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR EVENT, THEN IT'S WRONG. I DON'T KNOW. Q WELL, THE STATEMENT IS A ONE-PARAGRAPH STATEMENT; IS IT NOT? A YES. Q AND IT TALKS ABOUT YOU WALKING YOUR DOG IN THE AREA AROUND BUNDY AND DOROTHY, DOESN'T IT? A WELL, FIRST IT SAYS DUNDY. IT DOESN'T SAY BUNDY. SO THAT COULD BE A SPELLING ERROR. Q OKAY. A IT'S -- Q AND THE STATEMENT TALKS ABOUT THE FACT THAT THIS DOG CAME UP TO YOUR DOG AND STARTED FOLLOWING THE BOTH OF YOU; DOES IT NOT? A THERE'S A SENTENCE TO THAT EFFECT, YES. Q AND IT KEPT GOING FROM HOUSE TO HOUSE, CORRECT? A IT SAYS -- YES. IT SAYS IT'S MENTIONED GOING FROM HOUSE TO HOUSE. Q AND THAT THE DOG KEPT FOLLOWING YOU UNTIL YOU GOT HOME, CORRECT? A YES. Q AND IT SAYS IN THIS STATEMENT THAT YOU FIRST SAW THE DOG AROUND 11:15, DOESN'T IT? A THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS ON THE STATEMENT. Q NOW, WHEN YOU WERE SPEAKING WITH THE OFFICERS ABOUT THIS OCCURRENCE, YOU WERE PRESENT WITH AT LEAST ONE OTHER OFFICER? A YES. THERE WERE TWO DETECTIVES PRESENT AT -- ON THAT MONDAY MORNING. Q AND THEY WERE BOTH IN PLAIN CLOTHES? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND THEY WERE SPEAKING WITH YOU AND YOUR WIFE AS WELL? A THEY WERE SPEAKING TO ME. MY WIFE WAS PRESENT. Q WAS THERE ANYONE ELSE PRESENT? A BETTINA AND SUKRU. Q SO THE FOUR OF YOU AND THESE TWO DETECTIVES WERE STANDING TOGETHER TALKING? A YES. THEY WERE ALL PRESENT. Q WAS EVERYONE CONTRIBUTING TO THE CONVERSATION WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT YOUR PORTION OF WHAT OCCURRED OR WERE YOU THE ONLY ONE TALKING ABOUT THE DIFFERENT TIMES THAT YOU FIRST SAW THE DOG? A THERE WAS MUCH CONTRIBUTION FROM ALL OF US AND IT WASN'T JUST -- WE WERE ASKING QUESTIONS OF THE DETECTIVES AS WELL BECAUSE WE HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THAT POINT. Q DO YOU RECALL SPECIFICALLY TELLING THE DETECTIVE THAT YOU SAW THE DOG AT 11:15 OR DO YOU RECALL GIVING SOME OTHER RANGE? A I RECALL GIVING VARIOUS TIMES AND NOT BEING CLEAR EVEN AT THAT POINT OF WHAT TIME IT WAS. I DIDN'T SAY IT HAPPENED AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT. THAT WAS NOT WHAT I SAID. Q SO YOU NEVER SAID THAT IT HAPPENED SPECIFICALLY AT 11:15? A CORRECT. MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. IT'S NOT IMPEACHING. IT DOESN'T SAY THAT IN THE REPORT EITHER. THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED. Q BY MR. DOUGLAS: DID YOU -- WHAT RANGE DO YOU RECALL GIVING THEM OF THE TIME FRAME ABOUT WHICH YOU FIRST SAW THE DOG? A AS I SAID -- I SAID -- I MENTIONED 11:30 AT ONE POINT, I MENTIONED 11:00 O'CLOCK, BUT ALWAYS IT WAS AROUND 11:00 -- YOU KNOW, IT WAS AROUND 11:30 OR IT WAS AROUND 11 O'CLOCK. THOSE WERE THE TIMES THAT I WAS GOING THROUGH IN MY MIND. Q AND WAS IT THE NEXT DAY THAT YOU THEN CALLED BACK 911 SEEKING TO CORRECT THE MISINFORMATION THAT YOU HAD GIVEN? A I BELIEVE IT WAS THE NEXT DAY, YES. Q AND DO YOU RECALL THE PERSON WITH WHOM YOU SPOKE THE NEXT DAY? A NO. I DID NOT GET THE NAME OF THE OFFICER TO WHOM I SPOKE. Q YOU TOLD THEM YOUR NAME? A YES. I BELIEVE THAT I DID. Q DID YOU GIVE THEM YOUR ADDRESS? A I DON'T RECALL. Q DID YOU TELL THEM THAT YOU HAD PREVIOUSLY GIVEN A STATEMENT AND HAD GIVEN A CERTAIN TIME ABOUT HAVING FOUND A DOG? A I TOLD THEM THAT I WAS -- I WAS NOT CLEAR THE NIGHT BEFORE WHEN I HAD GIVEN A STATEMENT. Q OKAY. SO YOU SPECIFICALLY REFERRED IT TO AN EARLIER INTERVIEW? A YES. Q DID SOMEONE SUGGEST TO YOU THAT THERE WOULD BE AN OFFICER COMING BACK TO YOU TRYING TO CLARIFY THE MISINFORMATION? A THEY -- I BELIEVE THEY SAID SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF, WE'LL GET BACK TO YOU, BUT -- SO I WASN'T CLEAR WHETHER SOMEONE WOULD CALL OR WHETHER SOMEONE WOULD COME BY. Q HOW DID THEY TREAT YOU WHEN YOU CALLED THEM BACK TRYING TO CORRECT THE EARLIER STATEMENT? WERE THEY RUDE TO YOU? A NO. Q WERE THEY ABRUPT WITH YOU? A NO. Q DID ANYONE EVER CONTACT YOU TO TRY TO CORRECT THE MISINFORMATION THAT YOU HAD GIVEN EARLIER? A I DIDN'T SPEAK TO ANYONE PRIOR TO GETTING MY SUBPOENA FOR THE PRELIMINARY HEARING. Q NOW, YOU SAY THAT AS YOU WERE WALKING ON YOUR WALK WITH YOUR DOG -- AND BY THE WAY, WHAT KIND OF DOG DO YOU HAVE? A MY DOG IS PART CORGI AND PART SHELTIE. Q AND WAS YOUR DOG BEING WALKED ON A LEASH? A YES. Q YOU SAID AS YOU WERE WALKING DOWN GORHAM, YOU HAPPENED TO COME ACROSS TWO INDIVIDUALS? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND THEY WERE WALKING WESTBOUND ON GORHAM OR WERE THEY WALKING EASTBOUND? AND JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR, THE LOWER LEFT-HAND CORNER WOULD BE TOWARDS THE WEST. A AS YOU CAN SEE, IT'S NOT EXACT OBVIOUSLY. I MEAN, THE STREETS DON'T RUN PERFECTLY EAST TO WEST OR NORTH TO SOUTH, BUT THEY WERE COMING IN THIS DIRECTION WALKING TOWARDS IN THE DIRECTION OF BUNDY (INDICATING). I WAS WALKING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION WALKING TOWARDS AMHURST. Q SO THEY WERE WALKING NORTHEASTERLY AND YOU WERE WALKING SOUTHEASTERLY? A I'M NOT CLEAR ON WHAT YOU'RE -- Q OKAY. ON THIS -- ON THE EXHIBIT THAT'S IN FRONT OF YOU THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT, THAT'S EXHIBIT NUMBER? A I WAS WALKING -- IF THIS -- IF THIS MAP IS NORTH -- IS NORTH-SOUTH -- THERE'S NO LEGEND OR ANYTHING SAYING THIS IS NORTH-SOUTH OR ANYTHING, BUT -- MR. DOUGLAS: THIS IS EXHIBIT NO. 26, CORRECT, FOR THE RECORD? THE COURT: YES. Q BY MR. DOUGLAS: YOU WERE WALKING WHICH WAY; FROM LEFT TO RIGHT OR RIGHT TO LEFT? A I WAS WALKING IN THIS DIRECTION DOWN THIS WAY (INDICATING). Q FROM THE RIGHT TO THE LEFT ON EXHIBIT 26. AND THEY WERE WALKING THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION? A YES. THEY WERE WALKING THIS WAY (INDICATING). Q NOW, DO YOU HAVE ANY RECOLLECTION OF WHAT THEY WERE WEARING? A NO. Q DO YOU HAVE ANY RECOLLECTION OF WHETHER, FOR EXAMPLE, THE WOMAN WAS WEARING PANTS OR A DRESS? A NO. Q DO YOU HAVE ANY RECOLLECTION WHETHER EITHER WORE GLASSES? A UMM, I DON'T RECALL. Q DO YOU HAVE ANY RECOLLECTION WHETHER EITHER WAS WEARING A JACKET? A I DON'T RECALL. Q ALL THAT YOU CAN RECALL IS THAT THEY WERE TWO CAUCASIAN INDIVIDUALS? A YES. AND -- Q A MALE AND A FEMALE? A AND THAT THEY WERE TOGETHER. THEY WERE WALKING TOGETHER. Q WAS THERE ANYTHING DISTINCTIVE IN THE SPEECH PATTERNS OF EITHER SUCH AS AN ACCENT OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT THAT YOU COULD DISCERN? A NOT THAT -- I DON'T RECALL, NOT THAT I CAN RECALL. Q AS YOU WERE WALKING TOWARDS THE -- UP BUNDY AND WALKING TOWARDS BUNDY -- I AM SORRY -- UP DOROTHY AND TOWARDS BUNDY, YOU HAD OCCASION TO NOTICE A DOG AHEAD OF YOU; DID YOU NOT? A YES. Q WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THE DOG THAT CAUSED YOUR ATTENTION TO BE DRAWN TO THAT DOG? WAS IT JUST SEEING THE DOG FIRST? A WELL, AT FIRST, I JUST SAW THE DOG STANDING THERE. Q OKAY. AND HOW FAR AWAY WERE YOU FROM BUNDY -- A UH-HUH. Q -- WHEN YOU FIRST NOTICED THE EXISTENCE OF THAT DOG? A WELL, AS YOU SEE ON THE MAP, THERE'S THIS ALLEY HERE (INDICATING). I WAS PAST THAT. SO I WAS ABOUT HALFWAY BETWEEN THE ALLEY AND BUNDY WHEN I FIRST SPOTTED THE DOG. Q SO, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN YOU WERE WALKING ON DOROTHY WALKING UP WEST OF GRETNA GREEN, YOU DIDN'T NOTICE THE DOG? A NO. Q YOU DIDN'T HEAR A DOG? A NO. Q YOU DIDN'T HEAR ANY SORT OF LONG WAIL? A NOT THAT I RECALL. Q AS YOU GOT TO GRETNA GREEN HEADING TOWARDS BUNDY, YOU DIDN'T NOTICE THE DOG? A I AM SORRY? Q AS YOU WERE AT GRETNA GREEN WALKING UP TOWARDS BUNDY, YOU DIDN'T NOTICE THE DOG THEN? A NO. Q YOU DIDN'T HEAR ANY SORT OF WAIL? A NO. Q WHEN YOU WERE AT THE ACTUAL ALLEYWAY WHERE THE ALLEY BISECTS DOROTHY, YOU DIDN'T SEE THE DOG? A NOT AT THAT POINT. Q YOU DIDN'T HEAR A DOG? A NO. THE FIRST -- I FIRST SAW THE DOG. Q SO YOUR FIRST ATTENTION TO THE DOG WAS SEEING IT AND NOT HEARING IT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q WHEN YOU SAW THE DOG, THE DOG WAS LOOKING IN THE WALKWAY OF THE HOME THAT IS ON THE CORNER OF BUNDY AND DOROTHY? A NO. Q WHAT WAS THE DOG DOING? A IT WAS JUST STANDING AT THE CORNER. Q JUST STANDING DOING NOTHING? A YES. Q DID THE DOG APPEAR TO BE IN ANY DISTRESS WHEN YOU FIRST SAW IT? A NO. IT WAS JUST STANDING THERE. Q WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THE DOG, DID YOU HAPPEN TO HEAR ANY OTHER DOGS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD BARKING? A I DON'T RECALL. Q YOU DON'T HAVE A PRESENT RECOLLECTION OF HEARING ANY OTHER DOGS AT THE MOMENT THAT YOU FIRST SAW THE AKITA? A I DON'T REMEMBER HEARING ANY OTHER DOGS. Q WHEN YOU SAW THE DOG, THE DOG DID NOT HAVE A LEASH? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q WHEN YOU SAW THE DOG, YOU WALKED AND APPROACHED THE DOG HOLDING THE LEASH OF YOUR OWN DOG? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND YOU SAID THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING GOING ON WITH YOUR DOG SMELLING THE AKITA? A YES. UH -- YES. Q WHILE YOUR DOG WAS SMELLING THE AKITA, THE AKITA WAS NOT THEN BARKING, CORRECT? A I DON'T RECALL. Q BECAUSE THE AKITA AT SOME POINT BEGAN SMELLING YOUR DOG AS WELL, DIDN'T IT? A THE AKITA DID SMELL MY DOG. Q YOU'VE ESTIMATED THE TIME THAT YOU ARRIVED AT BUNDY AND DOROTHY AS BEING 1055 IN THE EVENING. A APPROXIMATELY. Q WERE YOU WEARING A WATCH AT THAT TIME? A YES, I WAS. Q DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO LOOK AT YOUR WATCH OTHER THAN THE TIME WHEN YOU TURNED ON GRETNA GREEN? A NO. Q HOW MUCH TIME WOULD YOU ESTIMATE THAT YOU SPENT STANDING ON THE CORNER WITH THE DOG AT BUNDY AND DOROTHY? A APPROXIMATELY A MINUTE OR TWO. Q AND THEN YOU CROSSED OVER BUNDY TO GO TO THE EAST SIDE OF BUNDY; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AS YOU CROSSED ON THE EAST SIDE OF BUNDY, YOU WERE ON THE EVEN NUMBERED SIDE OF THE STREET, WEREN'T YOU? A I DON'T KNOW. Q YOU DID SAY SOMETHING -- PERHAPS I'M MISTAKEN -- THAT WHEN THE DOG WAS AT THE CORNER OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY, THE AKITA WAS LOOKING DOWN THE WALKWAY OF THE CORNER HOME THERE. DO YOU RECALL SAYING THAT? A I RECALL SAYING THAT, SURE. Q AT WHAT POINT DID YOU SEE THE DOG LOOKING AT THE WALKWAY OF THE HOME ON THE CORNER OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY? A AS I WAS STOPPED THERE WITH THE DOG, THE DOG WOULD OCCASIONALLY TURN AWAY FROM ME, LOOK DOWN THIS PATH AND START BARKING AND HOWLING AT THE HOUSE ON THE CORNER. Q SINCE JUNE THE 12TH, HAVE YOU HAD OCCASION TO WALK THIS AREA AGAIN? A I'VE WALKED THIS PATH SINCE THEN. Q DO YOU NOW HAVE SOME UNDERSTANDING OF THE RELATIONSHIP TO WHERE THE DOG WAS AT BUNDY AND DOROTHY AND THE CRIME SCENE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY? A WELL, I'VE SEEN A LOT OF NEWS CREWS AND SUCH IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE. SO I KNOW WHAT -- APPROXIMATELY WHERE THE ENTRANCE TO THE HOUSE IS. Q THE HOME ON THE CORNER WHERE THE DOG WAS LOOKING AT THE WALKWAY IS A SINGLE-FAMILY RESIDENCE, ISN'T IT? A I BELIEVE THAT IT IS. Q AND NEXT TO THAT RESIDENCE IS A SEPARATE APARTMENT OR CONDOMINIUM COMPLEX, ISN'T THERE? A IT'S -- THERE'S A HOUSE NEXT DOOR. Q AND THEN TWO HOUSES AWAY FROM THE CORNER WOULD BE THE COMPLEX WHERE THE CRIME SCENE WAS LOCATED, CORRECT? A I DON'T -- I THINK -- I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S CORRECT. Q WHEN YOU SAW THE DOG ON DOROTHY AND BUNDY, YOU NOTICED THAT THE TAG HAD AN EXPENSIVE COLLAR. A YES. Q AND YOU WANTED TO TRY TO SEE IF YOU COULD LOCATE THE OWNER OF THE DOG? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q DID YOU HAPPEN TO SEE ANYONE ELSE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD AT THAT POINT WALKING THEIR DOG AS WELL? A NO. Q AFTER CROSSING OVER BUNDY, YOU THEN BEGAN WALKING NORTHBOUND ON BUNDY TOWARD MONTANA YOU'VE SAID. A YES. Q AND AS YOU WERE WALKING NORTHBOUND ON BUNDY, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE CRIME SCENE, WOULDN'T IT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND AS YOU WERE WALKING NORTHBOUND ON BUNDY, YOU SAY THAT THE DOG HAPPENED TO STOP PERIODICALLY AND START TO BARK. A THAT'S CORRECT. Q THE DOG WASN'T BARKING CONTINUOUSLY AS IT WAS WALKING NORTHBOUND BEHIND YOU, WAS IT? A NO. Q NOW, AS YOU SAW THE DOG, YOU HAPPENED TO NOTICE THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING REDDISH ON ITS HIND LEGS? A SORRY. COULD YOU SAY THAT AGAIN? Q AS YOU NOTED THE AKITA, YOU NOTICED SOMETHING REDDISH ON THE PAWS OF THE AKITA, THE HIND LEGS, DIDN'T YOU? A YES. Q AND YOU INTERPRETED THAT REDDISH SUBSTANCE AS BEING BLOOD? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q YOU NEVER BENT OVER TO TOUCH THE RED SUBSTANCE, DID YOU? A I DIDN'T TOUCH IT. I DID BEND OVER TO EXAMINE IT. Q YOU DIDN'T TOUCH IT, BUT YOU BENT OVER TO EXAMINE IT. A THAT'S CORRECT. Q DID YOU GET ANY OF THE RED SUBSTANCE ON YOUR HAND OR ON YOUR BODY AT ALL? A NO. AS I SAID, I DIDN'T TOUCH IT. Q YOU COULDN'T TELL BY SIMPLY LOOKING AT THE SUBSTANCE HOW LONG THE SUBSTANCE HAD BEEN ON THE DOG? A NO. Q THAT TIME OF THE EVENING, YOU'VE SAID THAT THE TRAFFIC ON BUNDY IS PRETTY LIGHT. A YES. Q DID YOU HAPPEN -- WHILE YOU WERE WALKING NORTHBOUND ON BUNDY AND KNOWING AS YOU KNOW NOW WHERE THE CRIME SCENE WAS LOCATED, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO SEE ANYONE WALKING OUT OF THE CONDOMINIUM COMPLEX DIRECTLY NORTH OF THE CRIME SCENE TO GO TO THE MAILBOX? A I DIDN'T LOOK IN THAT DIRECTION. Q WHILE YOU WERE WALKING YOUR DOG NORTHBOUND ON BUNDY, DID YOU EVER SEE THE AKITA WALKING IN THE STREET? A THE AKITA WALKED WITH US IN THE STREET. Q DID THE AKITA WALK IN THE STREET OR ON THE SIDEWALK? A WHEN WE CROSSED THE STREET, THE AKITA WAS WITH US. Q AND THEN AS YOU WERE WALKING ON THE SIDEWALK TOWARDS MONTANA, THE AKITA WAS ALSO ON THE SIDEWALK? A EXCEPT FOR THE TIMES THAT WE WERE CROSSING THE STREET, YES. Q OKAY. YOU NEVER SAW AN OCCASION, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN THE AKITA WAS STANDING IN THE STREET, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET ON BUNDY NEAR WHERE THE CRIME SCENE WAS? A NOT -- NOT WHILE I WAS PRESENT, NO. Q NOW, YOU'VE STATED THAT THE LOUDEST AND THE LONGEST BARKING OF THE DOG OCCURRED WHEN THE DOG WAS AT THE INTERSECTION OF GORHAM AND BUNDY; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND WHAT DID THE DOG DO? DID THE DOG JUST STOP AND BEGIN BARKING? A YES. WE -- MY -- I WAS WALKING WITH MY DOG. THE POLICE OFFICER WAS BEHIND THE DOG, AND THE DOG STOPPED AT THAT CORNER AND PARKED FOR A PERIOD OF TIME. Q NOW, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO THE POLICE OFFICER, DID YOU HAPPEN TO SAY ANYTHING TO THE POLICE OFFICER ABOUT HAVING OBSERVED BLOOD ON THE DOG? A NO. Q DID THE POLICE OFFICER SAY ANYTHING TO YOU TO SUGGEST THAT THE POLICE OFFICER HAD SEEN OR HAD NOTICED BLOOD ON THE DOG? A NO. NO. Q YOUR HAVING SEEN BLOOD ON THE DOG DID NOT TRIGGER IN YOUR MIND ANY SENSE OF CONCERN SUCH THAT YOU SOUGHT TO MENTION THAT FACT TO THE POLICE OFFICER? A I -- SEEING THE BLOOD ON THE PAW, I HAD THOUGHT THAT THE DOG POSSIBLY HAD CUT ITSELF. I DIDN'T MENTION IT TO THE POLICE OFFICER AS I RECALL. Q OKAY. MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. VAGUE. WHICH POLICE OFFICER? THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q BY MR. DOUGLAS: NOW, THE POLICE OFFICER THAT YOU SAW WAS COMING SOUTHBOUND ON BUNDY WHEN YOU SAW IT THE FIRST TIME, TRUE? A I DON'T RECALL WHERE THE POLICE OFFICER WAS COMING WHEN I FIRST SAW HIM. Q OKAY. WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THE POLICE OFFICER, THAT WAS AN AFRICAN AMERICAN OFFICER? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q WAS HE BY HIMSELF OR WITH A PARTNER? A YES, HE WAS BY HIMSELF. Q WAS HE THE SAME POLICE OFFICER THAT YOU GAVE YOUR NAME TO LATER? A YES. Q YOU HAVE A PARTICULAR RECOLLECTION OF RETURNING TO YOUR HOME ON MONTANA AT 11:05 APPROXIMATELY, CORRECT? A APPROXIMATELY 11:05. Q AND YOU KNOW THAT BECAUSE THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW THAT HAD BEGAN AT 11:00 O'CLOCK HAD JUST BEGUN? A CORRECT. MR. DOUGLAS: THANK YOU, SIR. NO OTHER QUESTIONS. THE COURT: ANY REDIRECT, MISS CLARK? MS. CLARK: YES, BRIEFLY. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK: Q MR. SCHWAB, YOU TESTIFIED AT A PRELIMINARY HEARING BACK IN JULY OF 1994, DIDN'T YOU? A YES. Q DO YOU RECALL THAT? A YES, I DO. Q AND AT THAT TIME, YOU WERE ASKED QUESTIONS VERY SIMILAR TO THE ONES YOU WERE ASKED TODAY; IS THAT RIGHT? A YES. Q I'M GOING TO READ A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS TO YOU FROM THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRELIMINARY HEARING AND ASK YOU IF YOU REMEMBER GIVING THE ANSWERS THAT I'M GOING TO READ TO YOU TO THE QUESTIONS THAT I WILL ALSO READ TO YOU. MS. CLARK: COUNSEL, PAGE 35. MR. DOUGLAS: LINE? MS. CLARK: LINE 15. Q BY MS. CLARK: "QUESTION: DURING THE WEEK, WHAT TIME DO YOU USUALLY WALK YOUR DOG AT NIGHT? "ANSWER: I USUALLY LEAVE THE HOUSE AT 11:30. THAT'S DURING THE WEEK. I GENERALLY WATCH THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW AND THEN WALK MY DOG, AND DURING THE WEEK, THAT'S ON BETWEEN 11:00 AND 11:30. "QUESTION: AND ON SUNDAY NIGHTS? "ANSWER: WELL, THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW IS ALSO ON, BUT IT'S ON AN HOUR EARLIER. SO I WATCH THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW, ON SUNDAY EVENING, I WATCH IT BETWEEN 10:00 AND 10:30 AND THEN I GO TO WALK MY DOG. "QUESTION: NOW, JUNE THE 12TH WAS A SUNDAY, SIR? "ANSWER: YES, IT WAS. "QUESTION: DID YOU WATCH THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW THAT NIGHT? "ANSWER: YES, I DID. "QUESTION: AND THAT WAS AT WHAT TIME THAT YOU WATCHED THAT SHOW? "ANSWER: I WATCHED THAT SHOW BETWEEN 10:00 AND 10:30. "QUESTION: DID YOU WATCH THE ENTIRE SHOW, SIR? "ANSWER: YES, I DID. "QUESTION: AND WHAT TIME DID THAT SHOW END? "ANSWER: THAT ENDS JUST PRIOR TO 10:30. "QUESTION: DID YOU WALK THE DOG THAT NIGHT AFTER YOU WATCHED THE SHOW? "ANSWER: YES. AS SOON AS THE SHOW WAS OVER, I GOT MY DOG, PUT HER ON LEASH AND TOOK HER FOR A WALK. "QUESTION: ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH, THAT SUNDAY NIGHT, ABOUT WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE YOUR APARTMENT TO WALK YOUR DOG? "ANSWER: SHORTLY AFTER 10:30, BETWEEN 10:30 AND 10:35. IT WAS CLOSER TO 10:30." DO YOU RECALL THOSE QUESTIONS AND YOUR GIVING THOSE ANSWERS? A YES. Q IS THAT STILL YOUR TESTIMONY TODAY, SIR? A YES, IT IS. Q AND THAT WAS BACK IN JULY OF 1994? A THAT'S CORRECT. MS. CLARK: COUNSEL, DIRECTING COUNSEL'S ATTENTION TO PAGE 37. MR. DOUGLAS: WHAT LINE? MS. CLARK: 8. MR. DOUGLAS: AND TO WHAT? MS. CLARK: TILL 21 OR ACTUALLY 26. Q BY MS. CLARK: "QUESTION: HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO GET TO GRETNA GREEN? "ANSWER: WELL, I LOOKED AT MY WATCH WHEN I TURNED TO GO DOWN GRETNA GREEN, AND THAT WAS 10:37. I REMEMBER THAT MY DOG HAD TAKEN CARE OF ITS BUSINESS AND I WAS DECIDING WHETHER TO RETURN HOME OR CONTINUE WALKING. IT WAS A NICE NIGHT, SO I DECIDED TO CONTINUE WALKING. "QUESTION: SO WHAT TIME WAS IT ABOUT WHEN YOU GOT TO GRETNA GREEN? "ANSWER: 10:37. "QUESTION: 10:37. YOU KNOW THAT EXACTLY? "ANSWER: WELL, BETWEEN 10:35 AND 10:40. I WAS JUST NOT EXACT BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE A DIGITAL WATCH, BUT IT WAS BETWEEN 10:35 AND 10:40. "QUESTION: WERE YOU WEARING A WATCH AT ALL? "ANSWER: YES, I WAS WEARING A WATCH. "QUESTION: A REGULAR WATCH, NOT THE DIGITAL KIND? "ANSWER: NOT THE DIGITAL. IN FACT, I'M WEARING IT NOW. IT'S A REGULAR WATCH." BY THE WAY, ARE YOU WEARING IT NOW? A YES. YES, I AM. Q FIRST OF ALL, SIR, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THOSE QUESTIONS AND THOSE ANSWERS? A YES, I DO. Q WERE THOSE THE ANSWERS GIVEN IN RESPONSE TO THE QUESTIONS I READ TO YOU AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING IN JULY OF 1994? A YES. Q AND THAT IS STILL YOUR TESTIMONY? A YES. MS. CLARK: AND ON CROSS-EXAMINATION, COUNSEL, AT PAGE 61, LINE 12. MR. DOUGLAS: TO WHAT? MS. CLARK: TO LINE 19. MR. DOUGLAS: NO OBJECTION. Q BY MS. CLARK: "QUESTION: NOW, YOU INDICATE YOU GOT HOME THEN ABOUT 11:05? "ANSWER: THAT'S CORRECT. "QUESTION: HAD THE DOG, THE AKITA DOG STOPPED BARKING BY THAT TIME? "ANSWER: YEAH. THE DOG SEEMED TO HAVE CALMED DOWN CONSIDERABLY BY THAT TIME. IT AGAIN FOLLOWED ME RIGHT UP THE STAIRS RIGHT TO MY FRONT DOOR." DO YOU RECALL GIVING THOSE ANSWERS TO THOSE QUESTIONS BACK IN JULY OF 1994 AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING? A YES, I DO. Q AND THAT'S STILL YOUR TESTIMONY, SIR? A YES. Q AND AGAIN, AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING, DID YOU ALSO DESCRIBE YOUR STATE OF MIND WHEN THE OFFICERS CAME TO TAKE YOUR TESTIMONY ON THE MORNING OF AT 5:00 -- APPROXIMATELY 5:00 A.M. IN THE MORNING OF JUNE THE 13TH? MR. DOUGLAS: OUTSIDE THE SCOPE, YOUR HONOR. OBJECTION. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, COULD WE APPROACH, PLEASE? THE COURT: SURE. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:) MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, MR. DOUGLAS WENT INTO THIS AT GREAT LENGTH, JUNE -- THE DATE OF JUNE THE 17TH BEING ON THE REPORT AND WHEN HE -- HOW HE GAVE THE STATEMENT AND WHAT CONDITION HE GAVE THE STATEMENT WITH ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE PRESENT AT 5:00 IN THE MORNING, AND I'M SIMPLY -- IT'S CERTAINLY NOT OUTSIDE THE SCOPE. MR. DOUGLAS: I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT HIS STATE OF MIND. I ASKED HIM ABOUT INACCURACIES IN THE STATEMENT. I SAID NOTHING ABOUT WHETHER HE WAS CONFUSED OR MISTAKEN OR ANYTHING. THE COURT: THAT IS THE SUBJECT? OBJECTION OVERRULED. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL. PROCEED. MS. CLARK: IS THAT OBJECTION OVERRULED, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: PROCEED. Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT, SIR. ALL RIGHT, SIR. AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING, YOU DESCRIBED YOUR STATE OF MIND WHEN THE OFFICERS CAME TO YOUR DOOR AT APPROXIMATELY 5:00 A.M. ON JUNE THE 13TH? A YES. Q AND YOU'VE DESCRIBED YOUR CONFUSION AND DISORIENTATION -- MR. DOUGLAS: OBJECTION. LEADING, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q BY MS. CLARK: -- AT THAT SAME TIME AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING BACK IN JULY 1994? A YES. Q AS YOU HAVE TODAY HERE, SIR? A YES. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU. I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. THE COURT: MR. DOUGLAS? MR. DOUGLAS: NO QUESTIONS, THANK YOU. THE COURT: MR. SCHWAB, THAT CONCLUDES YOUR TESTIMONY FOR TODAY. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU NOT TO DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANYBODY ELSE OTHER THAN THE LAWYERS IN THE CASE UNTIL THE MATTER IS CONCLUDED. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, SIR. AND, MISS CLARK, YOU HAVE A REPORT THAT IS UP HERE ON THE WITNESS STAND. ALL RIGHT. WHO IS THE PEOPLE'S NEXT WITNESS? MS. CLARK: PEOPLE CALL MR. SUKRU BOZTEPE. I'LL GO GET HIM. (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: MR. BOZTEPE, WOULD YOU STAND OVER HERE JUST TO THE SIDE OF THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE, AND FACE THE CLERK. SUKRU BOZTEPE, CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE, WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: THE CLERK: RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND, PLEASE. YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU MAY GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT, SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD? THE WITNESS: YES. THE CLERK: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT IN THE WITNESS STAND AND SPELL YOUR FIRST AND LAST NAMES FOR THE RECORD. THE WITNESS: SUKRU BOZTEPE, S-U-K-R-U B-O-Z-T-E-P-E. THE CLERK: THANK YOU. THE COURT: MISS CLARK. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK: Q GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. BOZTEPE. A GOOD AFTERNOON. Q SIR, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE DATE OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994, AS OF THAT DATE, SIR, WHERE DID YOU LIVE? A I LIVE IN MONTANA AVENUE BETWEEN SAN VICENTE AND BUNDY. Q NOW, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE CHART THAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 26, CAN YOU TELL US -- GO AHEAD AND TAKE A LOOK. A HERE (INDICATING). Q SEE THIS ICON, THIS HOUSE HERE? A YES. Q IS THAT APPROXIMATELY WHERE YOU LIVE? A YES, IT IS. Q AND IS THAT AN APARTMENT BUILDING, SIR? A YES. Q AND DID YOU HAVE A NEIGHBOR IN THAT APARTMENT BUILDING BY THE NAME OF STEVEN SCHWAB? A YES. Q AND YOU BOTH LIVED IN THE SAME BUILDING? A YES. Q CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, WHAT IS THE APPROXIMATE DISTANCE FROM YOUR -- FROM THAT APARTMENT BUILDING ON MONTANA TO THE LOCATION OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY? A AROUND TWO BLOCKS OR 700 FEET, 600 FEET, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q DO YOU SEE THE LOCATION OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY ON THAT CHART, SIR, PEOPLE'S 26? A YES. Q CAN YOU POINT TO IT, SIR? A (INDICATING). Q THAT'S THE -- IS THAT THE EAST SIDE OF THE STREET -- IS 875 SOUTH BUNDY ON THE WEST OR THE EAST SIDE OF THE STREET, IF YOU KNOW? A I BELIEVE IT'S WEST. Q WEST? OKAY? MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE HAVE THE HOUSE IDENTIFIED FOR THE RECORD, COUNSEL? MS. CLARK: WELL, LET ME ORIENTATE THE WITNESS FIRST. Q BY MS. CLARK: IF MY RIGHT IS THE EAST AND MY LEFT IS THE WEST -- A IT'S WEST. Q IT WOULD BE ON THE WEST SIDE? A YOU MEAN THIS BUILDING DOESN'T BELONG TO THIS STREET, CORRECT? Q RIGHT. IT BELONGS TO BUNDY. A OKAY. IT'S THIS -- THIS ONE (INDICATING). Q THAT AREA THERE? A OR THIS ONE (INDICATING). Q ONE OF THOSE TWO. MS. CLARK: OKAY. FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS POINTING TO EITHER THE RED OR THE BLUE HOUSE. OKAY. GOOD ENOUGH? MR. COCHRAN: IT'S YOUR WITNESS. Q BY MS. CLARK: NOW, DID YOU GO OUT THAT NIGHT AT SOME POINT, SIR? A YES. Q AND WHAT TIME DID YOU COME BACK? A IT WAS 11:40 P.M. Q WERE YOU ALONE? A I WAS ALONE. Q AND YOU GOT BACK TO YOUR APARTMENT BUILDING AT 11:40? A YES. Q WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO YOUR APARTMENT BUILDING, IS THERE A COURTYARD THAT YOU ENTER INTO IN ORDER TO GET TO YOUR APARTMENT? A YES. Q DID YOU SEE SOMEONE YOU RECOGNIZED IN THE COURTYARD? A OUR NEIGHBORS, STEVEN AND LINDA SCHWAB WAS THERE. Q AND DID STEVEN -- WAS HE ALONE? A HE WAS WITH HIS WIFE AND WITH A WHITE DOG. Q HAD YOU EVER SEEN THAT DOG BEFORE? A NO. Q DID YOU GO UP AND TALK TO HIM? A YES, I DID. Q AND DID YOU DISCUSS THE DOG? A YES. I ASK WHOSE DOG IT WAS. Q AND DID HE TELL YOU ABOUT WHERE HE HAD FOUND THE DOG? A YES, HE DID. Q CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THE DOG LOOKED LIKE? A IT WAS A BIG WHITE BEAUTIFUL DOG AND THAT'S IT. Q I AM SORRY? A THAT'S ALL I CAN DESCRIBE. Q THE AREA THAT YOU WERE -- THAT YOU FOUND STEVE SCHWAB IN WITH THE DOG, IS THERE A POOL NEARBY? A YES. Q IS THAT THE POOL AREA OF THE APARTMENT BUILDING? A YES. Q SHOWING YOU A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS THAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 40 -- CAN YOU SEE THAT? A YES. Q DID THE DOG LOOK LIKE THE DOG DEPICTED IN PEOPLE'S 40? A YES. Q NOW, AFTER YOU HAD THE CONVERSATION WITH MR. SCHWAB ABOUT THE DOG, WHAT DID YOU DO? A WE DECIDE TO KEEP THE DOG FOR OVERNIGHT. I TOOK THE DOG OUT FROM THE ALLEY ENTRANCE OF THE BUILDING AND THEN WALK AROUND TO BUILDING AND THEN COME BACK FROM THE FRONT DOOR. Q YOU DID THAT BY YOURSELF? A YES. Q WAS YOUR WIFE ANYWHERE NEARBY? A SHE WAS JUST IN FRONT OF OUR APARTMENT DOOR. Q WAS SHE TALKING TO SOMEBODY OR WAS SHE JUST STANDING THERE? A SHE WAS TALKING TO LINDA SCHWAB. Q TO LINDA SCHWAB? A YES. Q WOULD THAT BE STEVE SCHWAB'S WIFE? A YES. Q AND WAS THAT IN THE COURTYARD AREA OF THE BUILDING AS WELL? A YES. Q SO YOU TOOK THE DOG OUT AND YOU WALKED AROUND THE BUILDING? A YES. Q DID YOU REMEMBER TO SAY THAT WHEN YOU TESTIFIED AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING, SIR? A NO. Q WHEN DID YOU REMEMBER THAT? A COUPLE DAYS AFTER. Q AFTER YOU TESTIFIED? A YES. Q AND SO HOW LONG WERE YOU OUT WITH THE DOG THAT FIRST TIME? A LIKE MINUTES. Q A FEW MINUTES? A ONE MINUTE OR MAYBE LESS. BUT A VERY SHORT TIME. Q AND THEN YOU CAME BACK TO THE APARTMENT BUILDING? A YES. Q THEN WHAT HAPPENED? A WE TOOK THE DOG INSIDE OF OUR APARTMENT. Q YOU AND YOUR WIFE DID? A YES. AND WE WERE GOING TO SLEEP AND DOG WAS ACTING SO NERVOUS RUNNING AROUND SCRATCHING THE DOOR, AND WE DIDN'T FEEL SO COMFORTABLE SLEEPING WITH SUCH A BIG DOG IN OUR APARTMENT AND WE DECIDE TO TAKE THE DOG FOR A WALK. SO WE TOOK IT. Q SO YOU TOOK IT OUT FOR A WALK? A YES. Q FOR WHAT PURPOSE? A WELL, WE THOUGHT THAT WE CAN FIND OWNER OR OWNERS AND WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE IF THE DOG WANTS TO GO SOMEWHERE. SO -- Q SO WERE YOU TRYING TO LET THE DOG LEAD YOU? A YES. Q WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THE DOG IN THE COURTYARD, DID YOU HAPPEN TO NOTICE ITS PAWS OR ITS LEGS? A NOT IN THAT TIME, BUT I NOTICED WHEN WE GO INSIDE OF THE APARTMENT. Q WHEN YOU TOOK THE DOG INSIDE YOUR APARTMENT, YOU AND YOUR WIFE, DID YOU NOTICE THE DOG'S PAWS AND LEGS? A YES, I DID. Q AND WHAT DID YOU NOTICE ABOUT THEM? A IT WAS BLOODY THAT WAS SPOTS. Q I AM SORRY? A THERE WAS SPOTS. Q SPOTS? A ON THE PAWS AND THE LEGS. Q OF WHAT? A OF BLOOD. Q DID IT APPEAR TO BE DRY? A YES. Q WAS -- DID YOU SEE THOSE SPOTS OF BLOOD ON ALL FOUR PAWS AND LEGS? A YES. Q SO YOU TOOK THE DOG OUT FOR A WALK? A YES. Q AND DID YOU HAVE AN IDEA IN MIND AS TO WHERE YOU WOULD TAKE THE DOG? A STEVEN SAID -- MR. COCHRAN: MOVE TO STRIKE. NONRESPONSIVE. ALSO HEARSAY. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. WHY DON'T YOU ASK ANOTHER QUESTION. Q BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU -- YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH STEVEN, RIGHT? A CORRECT. Q AND HE TOLD YOU WHERE HE HAD FOUND THE DOG? A YES. Q SO YOU DECIDED TO TAKE THE DOG BACK TO THAT LOCATION? A YES. Q AND WHAT WAS THE LOCATION YOU DECIDED TO TAKE THE DOG BACK TO? A BUNDY AND DOROTHY. Q AND DID YOU TAKE THE DOG -- SO CAN YOU ON THIS CHART, PEOPLE'S 26, CAN YOU PLEASE SHOW US THE ROUTE YOU TOOK WITH THE DOG? A THIS SPOT FROM HERE, CROSS THE STREET IN THIS POINT, CONTINUE FROM HERE AND DOG PULL ME TO THIS SIDE OF STREET AND NOW WE CONTINUE TO HERE (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: PERHAPS THE COURT WOULD LIKE TO KILL THE FEED AT THIS POINT. THANK YOU. MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE -- (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.) Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. SO YOU TOOK THE DOG WALKING SOUTHBOUND ON BUNDY? A CORRECT. Q NOW, CAN YOU TELL US HOW THE DOG WAS BEHAVING AS YOU PROCEEDED SOUTH ON BUNDY? A IT WAS -- IT WAS GETTING MORE NERVOUS AND IT WAS PULLING ME HARDER. Q AS YOU PROCEEDED SOUTH ON BUNDY, THE DOG WAS PULLING HARDER? A YES. Q IN THE DIRECTION OF SOUTH ON BUNDY? A CORRECT. Q AND APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME WAS IT? A IT WAS JUST BEFORE MIDNIGHT, LIKE TWO MINUTES BEFORE MIDNIGHT. Q SO AS THE DOG WAS LEADING YOU SOUTHBOUND ON BUNDY, IT WAS PULLING HARDER AS IT GOT MORE AND MORE SOUTH? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. COUNSEL IS RESTATING TESTIMONY. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US WHEN DID THE DOG START TO PULL HARDER AS YOU WERE GOING SOUTH ON BUNDY? A AROUND THIS POINT, HE WANTED TO CROSS THE STREET AND THEN PULL ME HARDER. WE CROSS THE STREET TOGETHER AND MY WIFE FOLLOW US AND THEN HE START PULLING A LOT HARDER IN THIS DIRECTION (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS WAS POINTING TO THE LOCATION OF GORHAM AND BUNDY WHEN HE SAID THAT THE DOG STARTED PULLING A LOT HARDER. Q BY MS. CLARK: AND WERE YOU ON THE EAST SIDE OF THE STREET? A I WAS ON THE EAST SIDE OF THE STREET BEFORE WE CROSS. Q AND YOU CROSSED BECAUSE THE DOG PULLED YOU ACROSS? A CORRECT. Q AND THEN YOU WERE ON THE WEST SIDE OF THE STREET? A YES. Q WAS THE DOG STILL PULLING HARD PULLING YOU SOUTHBOUND ON BUNDY? A CORRECT. Q AND ON THE WEST SIDE? A YES. Q AT SOME POINT, DID THE DOG STOP? A YES. Q AT WHAT POINT DID THE DOG STOP? A YOU WANT ME SHOW IT OR -- Q YES. A JUST AROUND HERE (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS POINTED TO THE LOCATION OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY NICOLE BROWN ICON, THE RED HOUSE. THE COURT: NOTED. Q BY MS. CLARK: AND WHEN THE DOG STOPPED AT THAT LOCATION, WHAT DID IT DO? A WELL, DOG JUST WAS IN FRONT OF ME AND THEN LOOKING AT THE RIGHT SIDE OF -- RIGHT SIDE OF THE STREET. SO I COULDN'T GO ANY FURTHER AND I STOPPED AT EXACTLY SAME POINT WHERE THE DOG WAS LOOKING. Q SO THE DOG TURNED ITS HEAD TO THE RIGHT? A CORRECT. Q AND LOOKED -- WAS IT LOOKING TOWARDS THE HOUSE THAT WAS AT THE END OF THE PATHWAY? A YES. Q AND BECAUSE OF THAT, YOU DID -- YOU LOOKED IN THE SAME DIRECTION? A YES. Q CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU SAW? A I SAW A LADY LAYING DOWN FULL OF BLOOD. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I AM GOING TO DIRECT THE PHOTOGRAPHERS NOT TO TAKE ANY PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE PRESENTATION SCREENS. Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. MR. BOZTEPE, IF YOU WILL LOOK AT THE MONITOR TO YOUR RIGHT. CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, IF THAT IS -- IF THAT DEPICTS WHAT YOU SAW ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994 AT APPROXIMATELY MIDNIGHT WHEN THE AKITA STOPPED? A CORRECT. YES. Q ON 875 SOUTH BUNDY? A YES. Q AND IS THAT THE CONDITION IN WHICH YOU SAW THE WOMAN? A YES. Q THANK YOU. NOW, THAT LOCATION, IS IT VERY DARK? A YES, IT WAS VERY DARK. Q AS YOU APPROACHED THE LOCATION OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THAT ANYTHING WAS UNUSUAL? DID ANYTHING UNUSUAL APPEAR TO YOU BEFORE THE DOG STOPPED? A NOT REALLY. Q HAD THE DOG NOT STOPPED, WOULD YOU HAVE LOOKED UP THAT PATHWAY OR SEEN ANYTHING? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. SPECULATION. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q BY MS. CLARK: WAS THE REASON YOU STOPPED BECAUSE THE DOG STOPPED AND LOOKED AT THE PATHWAY? A YES. Q OTHERWISE, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE DONE SO? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. SPECULATION. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: I WOULDN'T STOP AND LOOK. Q BY MS. CLARK: NOW, AFTER YOU SAW THAT SIGHT, SIR, WHAT DID YOU DO? A I TURNED TO MY WIFE AND SAID THERE WAS A DEAD PERSON THERE. MR. COCHRAN: ASKING THE WITNESS TO SPECULATE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION. THE WITNESS: I TURNED TO MY WIFE AND SAID THAT THERE WAS A DEAD PERSON THERE AND NEXT WE TRIED TO CALL 911. WE DECIDE TO CALL 911. Q BY MS. CLARK: AND WHAT DID YOU DO TO TRY TO CALL 911? A WE CROSS THE STREET, RAN TO A HOUSE, KNOCKED AT DOOR, RANG THE BELL AND THERE WAS NOBODY THERE AND THERE WAS NO ANSWER. AND THEN WE DECIDE TO GO TO THE NEXT HOUSE, WHICH IS -- I BELIEVE IT'S THE NORTH SIDE OF THE HOUSE. AND WHEN WE WERE GOING THERE, WE HAD SEEN A LADY. WE TRIED -- WE STOPPED HER AND THEN SAID THAT THERE WAS A PERSON LAYING DOWN THERE AND SHE SHOULD CALL 911, AND SHE SAID, OKAY, SHE WOULD DO THAT AND SHE JUST LEFT BY HER CAR. AND THEN I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T TRUST HER, THAT SHE WOULD CALL THEM. AND WE WENT TO THE OTHER HOUSE AND WE MADE THE MAN, KIND OF OLD MAN CALL 911. Q OKAY. BEFORE YOU WENT TO THE OLD MAN, DID YOU KNOCK ON SOMEONE ELSE'S DOOR? A YES. AS I SAID THE FIRST TIME, I WENT AND KNOCKED ON SOMEBODY'S DOOR. Q WAS THAT ACROSS THE STREET FROM 875 SOUTH BUNDY? A YES. JUST OPPOSITE SIDE OF STREET. Q AND DID YOU RING THE BELL? A YES. Q MANY TIMES? A PROBABLY COUPLE TIMES. Q DID ANYONE ANSWER? A NO. Q WAS THAT -- WAS THAT DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET FROM 875 SOUTH BUNDY? A YES. Q AND NO ONE ANSWERED THE DOOR THERE? A NO ONE ANSWERED. Q AND THEN YOU WENT TO THE HOUSE NEXT DOOR TO THAT? A CORRECT. Q AND AFTER YOU SPOKE TO THAT OLD MAN, WHAT DID YOU DO? A WE WAIT FOR THE POLICE ARRIVE. Q AND DID YOU STILL HAVE THE AKITA WITH YOU? A YES. Q WHEN THE POLICE ARRIVED, DID YOU MEET WITH THEM? A YES. Q AND DID YOU TELL THEM WHAT YOU HAD SEEN? A YES. Q WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE BODY OF THE WOMAN CLEARLY FROM YOUR POSITION AT THE SIDEWALK? A WHICH SIDEWALK? Q WHEN YOU FIRST STOPPED AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY AND YOU LOOKED UP THE WALKWAY AND YOU SAW THE BODY OF THE WOMAN, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE IT CLEARLY? A YES. Q WAS IT DARK IN THAT AREA? A IT WAS DARK. Q SO WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANY DETAILS OR WAS IT JUST THAT YOU COULD SEE A BODY THERE? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q BY MS. CLARK: HOW MUCH WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE IN THE DARKNESS WHEN YOU LOOKED UP THE WALKWAY AND SAW THE BODY OF THE WOMAN? MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: I COULD SEE THE PERSON WAS A LADY, SHE WAS BLOND. I COULD SEE HER ARM AND THAT'S ABOUT IT. Q BY MS. CLARK: AND THAT WAS ABOUT IT. WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANY OTHER -- WHETHER THERE WERE ANY OTHER VICTIMS LYING THERE? A NO. Q WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ALL OF THE BLOOD THAT WAS LYING AROUND HER? A THERE WAS A LOT OF BLOOD. SO THAT'S WHAT I SEEN. Q YOU JUST SAW A LOT OF BLOOD? A CORRECT. Q WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE PAW PRINTS IN THE WALKWAY, THE BLOODY PAW PRINTS? A NO. MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. THAT ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE. THE COURT: WELL, HE SAID NO. THE ANSWER WAS NO. AND THE QUESTION AND ANSWER WILL STAND. Q BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU WALK UP THAT WALKWAY? A NO. Q DID YOUR WIFE WALK UP THAT WALKWAY? A NO. Q DID ANYONE GO UP THAT WALKWAY BEFORE THE POLICE ARRIVED? A NO. Q NOW, WHEN THE DOG WAS WITH YOU, WAS IT BARKING? A NO. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: I DON'T KNOW IF WE MARKED THE PHOTOGRAPH, YOUR HONOR, BUT PERHAPS WE SHOULD. THE COURT: LAST PHOTOGRAPH THAT WAS SHOWN, THAT WOULD BE 42, PEOPLE'S 42. MS. CLARK: 42. THANK YOU. (PEO'S 42 FOR ID = PHOTO WALKWAY/NBS) Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. YOU SPOKE TO THE OFFICER THAT -- THE FIRST OFFICER THAT ARRIVED AT THE SCENE? A YES, I DID. Q AND HOW LONG AFTER YOU SAW THE BODY OF THE WOMAN AND YOU WENT TO KNOCK ON THE DOOR AND RING THE DOORBELL OF THE PERSON WHO DIDN'T ANSWER DID THEY ARRIVE? A WELL, IT TOOK FIVE MINUTES AFTER I SAW THE BODY, PROBABLY LIKE FIVE MINUTES, FOUR, SIX SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q FOR THE OFFICER TO ARRIVE? A YES. Q ABOUT FIVE MINUTES, FIVE OR SIX MINUTES AFTER YOU SAW THE BODY? A YES. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU. THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN. MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN: Q GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. BOZTEPE. A GOOD AFTERNOON. Q FROM THE TIME THAT YOU LEFT YOUR RESIDENCE ON MONTANA TO START THIS TREK BACK TO 875 BUNDY, DID THE DOG THAT YOU'VE BEEN DESCRIBING FOR US, DID THAT DOG BARK AT ALL DURING THAT TIME FRAME? A NO. Q AND THE DOG HAD APPEARED CALM AS HE WAS IN THIS COURTYARD AREA IN YOUR APARTMENT BEFORE THAT, AT LEAST UNTIL YOU PUT HIM INSIDE YOUR HOUSE? A CORRECT. Q YOU HAD ARRIVED BACK HOME ON MONTANA AT WHAT TIME THAT EVENING? A I ARRIVED AROUND 11:40. Q ABOUT 11:40 P.M.? A YES. I ARRIVED TO HOME 11:40. Q 11:40 P.M.? A 11:40 P.M. Q AND WHEN YOU FIRST CAME HOME -- THIS IS SUNDAY EVENING AT ABOUT 11:40 JUNE 12TH, RIGHT? A CORRECT. Q AND WHEN YOU FIRST CAME HOME, DID YOU IMMEDIATELY TALK WITH AND SEE MR. STEVEN SCHWAB? A YES. Q AND DID YOU SEE THE DOG ALMOST IMMEDIATELY ALSO? A YES. Q SO THAT WOULD BE RIGHT AROUND 11:40 OR SHORTLY THEREAFTER; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. Q THIS IS BEFORE YOU WENT INSIDE YOUR APARTMENT, SIR? A YES. Q ALL RIGHT. AND AFTER A CONVERSATION WITH MR. SCHWAB AND PERHAPS HIS WIFE, IT WAS THEN DECIDED THAT YOU WOULD TRY TO KEEP THE DOG IN YOUR APARTMENT FOR THAT PARTICULAR NIGHT; IS THAT CORRECT? A CORRECT. Q AND YOU HAVE DESCRIBED FOR US HOW THAT DIDN'T WORK OUT BECAUSE THE DOG SEEMED AGITATED AND WAS SCRATCHING AND WANTED TO GET OUTSIDE, RIGHT? A RIGHT. Q SO WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU LEFT YOUR MONTANA ADDRESS TO START HEADING BACK SOUTH TOWARD 875 BUNDY? A JUST BEFORE MIDNIGHT. Q RIGHT BEFORE MIDNIGHT? A JUST BEFORE MIDNIGHT. Q JUST BEFORE MIDNIGHT. SO WHEN YOU SAY JUST BEFORE MIDNIGHT, PLACE IT FOR ME. FIVE MINUTES BEFORE MIDNIGHT, 10 MINUTES BEFORE MIDNIGHT? A THREE, FOUR MINUTES, TWO MINUTES. Q A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME? A VERY. Q ALL RIGHT. AND THEN YOU'VE DESCRIBED FOR US HOW YOU -- THE DOG PULLED YOU ALONG THE STREET AND YOU ENDED UP AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY, RIGHT? A RIGHT. Q ALL RIGHT. AND THE PHOTOGRAPH -- WITHOUT PUTTING THAT PHOTOGRAPH BACK UP THERE, WHEN YOU STOPPED AND YOUR ATTENTION WAS TURNED TO YOUR RIGHT UP THIS WALKWAY, YOU SAW A LOT OF BLOOD FOR ONE THING; IS THAT CORRECT? A CORRECT. Q AND YOU SAW A GATE THAT WAS OPEN; WAS THAT CORRECT? A I DIDN'T SEE THE GATE. Q YOU DIDN'T SEE THE GATE, BUT YOU SAW THE BODY OF A WOMAN; IS THAT CORRECT? A CORRECT. Q ATTIRED IN A BLACK DRESS, RIGHT? A RIGHT. Q APPEARED TO BE BLOND? A YES. Q AND THERE WAS NOTHING BLOCKING YOUR VIEW? IN OTHER WORDS, YOU COULD LOOK RIGHT UP THE WALKWAY AND SEE THIS PARTICULAR BODY THERE, RIGHT? A YES. Q AND YOU -- IN LOOKING AT THAT PHOTOGRAPH, DID YOU NOTICE THAT THE GATE WAS OPEN, WAS WIDE OPEN? A I DIDN'T SEE THE GATE. Q AND IF YOU SAW THE PHOTOGRAPH, WOULD THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AT ALL? A I STILL DIDN'T SEE THE GATE. Q YOU DIDN'T SEE THE GATE AT ALL THAT NIGHT. YOU JUST SAW AN OPEN SPACE. WOULD THAT BE A FAIR STATEMENT? A YES. Q AND THEN YOU SAW THE BODY BELOW THE OPEN SPACE; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. CORRECT. Q AND AT THE TIME YOU MADE THESE OBSERVATIONS, WERE YOU BY YOURSELF OR WITH YOUR WIFE AT THAT POINT? A FIRST I SAW THE BODY AND THEN I TOLD HER. SO SHE SAW IT TOO. Q AND SHE WAS -- WAS SHE STANDING RIGHT ALONGSIDE OF YOU, SIR? A SHE WAS A LITTLE BIT BEHIND OF ME. Q ALL RIGHT. SO SHE MOVED UP TO WHERE YOU WERE SO SHE COULD THEN LOOK UP AND SEE? A WELL, SHE DIDN'T GET A CLEAR VIEW BECAUSE I WAS ALMOST BLOCKING THE ISSUE. SHE WAS JUST BEHIND OF ME AND SHE JUST LOOKED AT IT. Q SO AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU SAW -- YOU MADE THESE OBSERVATIONS. A CORRECT. Q YOU SAID SOMETHING TO YOUR WIFE, SHE GOT A -- KIND OF A GLANCING VIEW OF WHAT WAS TAKING PLACE; IS THAT RIGHT? A RIGHT. Q YOU SAW ENOUGH THAT YOU WANTED TO THEN GO MAKE THAT 911 CALL TO GET SOME HELP; IS THAT CORRECT? A CORRECT. CORRECT. Q NOW, FROM A STANDPOINT OF PERSPECTIVES, HOW GOOD ARE YOU AT DISTANCES? A I DON'T KNOW. Q OKAY. WELL, LET'S SEE HOW GOOD YOU ARE. WITH REGARD TO -- LET'S ASSUME THAT YOU ARE OUT ON THE STREET, OUT ON THE SIDEWALK IN FRONT OF 875. HOW FAR WAS THIS BODY FROM WHERE YOU WERE? IF YOU'RE ASSUMING THAT THE WITNESS BOX, YOU WERE AT THAT LOCATION, CAN YOU POINT TO SOMETHING ABOUT WHERE I AM OR SOMEWHERE IN THIS COURTROOM? A YOU SHOULD GET A LITTLE BIT CLOSER TO ME. Q YOU STOP ME WHEN I SHOULD BE, AND I'LL DO THAT, OKAY, SIR? A CORRECT. THAT'S OKAY. Q RIGHT HERE (INDICATING)? ALL RIGHT. MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, WE CAN ESTIMATE OR YOU CAN TELL US. THE COURT: THAT'S ABOUT 10, 12 FEET. Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ABOUT 10 OR 12 FEET LOOKING STRAIGHT ON; IS THAT RIGHT? A RIGHT. Q AND THAT WOULD BE FROM THE SIDEWALK ON THE WESTERN SIDE OF BUNDY TO WHERE YOU MADE THESE OBSERVATIONS; IS THAT CORRECT? A CORRECT. Q AND NEITHER YOU NOR YOUR WIFE OR THE ANIMAL APPROACHED WHERE YOU SAW THIS BODY; IS THAT CORRECT? A CORRECT. Q YOU THEN LEFT THE AREA AND THAT'S WHEN YOU WENT AND MADE THE CALLS TO THE POLICE; IS THAT CORRECT? A CORRECT. Q AND DID I UNDERSTAND YOU TO SAY THE POLICE ARRIVED IN A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME AFTER THAT? A YES. Q WOULD I BE CORRECT IN ASSUMING THE POLICE ARRIVED THERE ABOUT 12:00, 12:13? A 12:00, 12:13? Q ABOUT 12:13 A.M. A I DIDN'T HAVE WATCH, SIR. Q YOU WEREN'T WEARING A WATCH. THEY CAME, THE POLICE OFFICERS CAME A FAIRLY SHORT TIME AFTER YOU CALLED? A CORRECT. Q HOW MANY MINUTES WAS THAT? A AFTER I MADE OLD MAN CALL THE POLICE, PROBABLY TWO OR THREE MINUTES. Q NOW, BEFORE YOU ASKED THE ELDERLY GENTLEMAN TO CALL THE POLICE, YOU HAD GONE TO ANOTHER HOUSE AND RANG THE BELL? A CORRECT. Q AND THEN -- AND NOBODY RESPONDED THERE, RIGHT? A CORRECT. Q SO DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME, WHAT WOULD BE YOUR BEST APPROXIMATION WHAT TIME IT WOULD BE THE POLICE WOULD HAVE BEEN CALLED? A I CAN'T MAKE ANY. Q ALL RIGHT. BUT THEY CAME WITHIN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME AFTER THAT; IS THAT CORRECT? A CORRECT. CORRECT. Q AND YOU THEN HAD OCCASION TO TALK TO THIS POLICE OFFICER WHEN HE ARRIVED; IS THAT CORRECT? A CORRECT. Q AFTER THE POLICE ARRIVED, YOU WERE PRESENT, WERE YOU NOT, WHEN A MAN WHO LIVED ACROSS THE HOUSE -- ACROSS THE STREET FROM 875 BUNDY CAME OUT AND MADE A STATEMENT TO THE POLICE? DO YOU RECALL THAT? A NO. Q YOU DON'T RECALL A MAN COMING OUT AND MAKING A STATEMENT ABOUT THE TIME THAT THE DOG STARTED BARKING THAT NIGHT? A NO. Q DID YOU AT SOME POINT ON JUNE 13TH, 1994 AT ABOUT 4:25 IN THE MORNING HAVE OCCASION TO SPEAK WITH AN OFFICER BY THE NAME OF ROBERTS, R-O-B-E-R-T-S? A I DON'T KNOW THE NAME. Q ALL RIGHT. BUT DID A POLICE OFFICER COME AND TALKED TO YOU AT YOUR MONTANA ADDRESS? A A POLICE OFFICER -- WELL, I WAS IN THE POLICE STATION. SO DETECTIVE COME AND TALK TO ME AND THAT'S -- Q ALL RIGHT. DID YOU TALK TO THE POLICE AT THE POLICE STATION? A CORRECT. I DID. Q HOW LATE DID YOU STAY DOWN AT THE POLICE STATION THAT MORNING? A CAN YOU REPEAT? Q HOW LATE DID YOU STAY AT THE POLICE STATION THAT MORNING? A I BELIEVE IT WAS AROUND 4:30 OR 5:00. Q AND WHILE -- AND THAT WAS WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE STATION? A YES. Q THE WEST LOS ANGELES DIVISION? WHILE YOU WERE THERE, DID YOU GIVE A STATEMENT TO A POLICE OFFICER BY THE NAME OF ROBERTS? A I DON'T KNOW THE NAME, BUT I GAVE A STATEMENT. Q AND IN THAT STATEMENT, YOU TRIED TO BE AS ACCURATE AS YOU COULD; IS THAT CORRECT? A I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU SAY. Q IN THAT STATEMENT TO THE POLICE OFFICER, YOU TRIED TO BE AS ACCURATE AS YOU COULD? A CORRECT. Q YOU TOLD THE POLICE ABOUT THIS WOMAN BY HER CAR THAT YOU ASKED TO CALL 911; DID YOU NOT? A YES. Q DID YOU TELL THE POLICE THAT AFTER THE POLICE ARRIVED, A MAN THAT LIVES ACROSS THE STREET FROM 875 CAME OUT AND SAID THE NEIGHBORHOOD DOG STARTED BARKING AT 10:30 P.M.? DID YOU TELL HIM THAT? A YES, I REMEMBER. Q YOU REMEMBER MAKING THAT STATEMENT TO THE POLICE WHILE YOU WERE AT WEST LOS ANGELES STATION? A YES. Q WHICH MAN WAS THAT WHO MADE THAT STATEMENT? A IT WAS THE OLD MAN WHO CALLED 911 I GUESS. Q THE SAME OLD MAN, THE ELDERLY GENTLEMAN WHO CALLED? A CORRECT. Q WHO MADE THIS CALL? A CORRECT. Q AND DO YOU KNOW HIS NAME? A NO. Q AND YOU WERE PRESENT WHEN HE MADE THAT STATEMENT TO THE POLICE OFFICER, RIGHT? A YES. Q NOW, AT ANY TIME, WERE YOU EVER PRESENT ON OR ABOUT JUNE 17TH, 1994 -- WELL, STRIKE THAT. WERE YOU EVER PRESENT ON JUNE 13TH, 1994 AFTER YOU WENT BACK HOME TO MONTANA AND DID THE POLICE COME TO YOUR HOUSE AFTER YOU HAD BEEN AT THE POLICE STATION AT ALL AND TALKED TO ANYONE? A WELL, THEY GAVE A RIDE BACK TO US AND THEY THEN COME TO OUR HOUSE. Q THEY GAVE YOU A RIDE BACK HOME? A CORRECT. Q AND WHEN YOU GOT BACK HOME WITH THE POLICE, DO YOU RECALL WHETHER OR NOT THEY TALKED TO YOU, MR. BOZTEPE, AND ALSO TO MR. STEVEN SCHWAB? A THEY DIDN'T TALK TO ME. THEY TALKED TO MR. SCHWAB. Q THEY TALKED TO MR. SCHWAB? AND WERE YOU PRESENT DURING THE TIME YOU SAW THEM TALKING TO HIM? A YES. Q AND WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN ABOUT 5:30 IN THE MORNING? A POSSIBLE, YEAH. Q AND DID YOU HEAR THE OFFICER, THIS SAME OFFICER ROBERTS WAS THE SAME OFFICER WHO HAD TALKED TO YOU AT WEST LOS ANGELES STATION? A CORRECT. Q TALKED TO HIM, RIGHT? A CORRECT. Q AND YOU OVERHEARD THE CONVERSATION, RIGHT, A PART OF IT? A PART OF IT. Q AND DID YOU HEAR MR. SCHWAB TELL THE OFFICER THAT HE HAD BEEN WALKING HIS DOG IN THE AREA AROUND BUNDY AND DOROTHY? A YES. Q DID YOU HEAR HIM SAY THAT THIS DOG, MEANING THE AKITA, HAD COME UP TO HIM AND STARTED FOLLOWING HIM AND HIS DOG? DID YOU HEAR HIM SAY THAT? A YES. Q AND IT WAS OBVIOUSLY LOST, RUNNING FROM HOUSE TO HOUSE. THAT IS AKITA HAD BEEN LOST? A AS I HEARD, YES. Q AND, "IT KEPT FOLLOWING ME UNTIL I GOT HOME," WORDS TO THAT EFFECT? A YES. Q AND THAT MR. SCHWAB TOLD OFFICER ROBERTS THAT, "WHEN I FIRST SAW IT," THE AKITA, "IT WAS AROUND 11:50 P.M."? MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. OBJECTION. CAN WE APPROACH? THE COURT: YES, WITH THE COURT REPORTER. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE AT THE SIDEBAR. MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I LET COUNSEL ASK A COUPLE QUESTIONS ON THIS, BUT I DON'T SEE HOW ANOTHER WITNESS' STATEMENT CONCERNING A DIFFERENT POINT IN TIME WHEN THIS WITNESS WAS NOT EVEN PRESENT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH IMPEACHING THIS WITNESS. THE COURT: IT'S NOT IMPEACHING THIS WITNESS. IT'S IMPEACHING THE OTHER GUY. MS. CLARK: BUT THAT WAS WITH MR. SCHWAB. THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE WITH THAT OTHER WITNESS. MR. COCHRAN: IS THAT THE OBJECTION? MS. CLARK: I'M OBJECTING TO COUNSEL ATTEMPTING TO USE THE SAME POLICE REPORT THAT THE OTHER WITNESS WAS ALREADY CONFRONTED WITH WITH A WITNESS WHO DIDN'T GIVE THE REPORT. HOW IS THAT PROPER IMPEACHMENT? THE COURT: HE'S ASKING MR. BOZTEPE, DID YOU HEAR MR. SCHWAB SAY X? DID YOU SEE HIM SAY Y. THAT'S HOW I UNDERSTAND IT. MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S RIGHT. MS. CLARK: IT SOUNDED TO ME LIKE HE WAS GOING THROUGH THE POLICE REPORT. THE COURT: THAT'S WHAT HE'S DOING. MS. CLARK: BUT NO -- MR. COCHRAN: I'M ASKING HIM WHAT HE SAID. I'M USING THE POLICE REPORT, BUT I'M ASKING HIM DID HE SAY -- HE SAID HE WAS PRESENT. IT'S PROPER IMPEACHMENT. MAY WE PROCEED? I DON'T HAVE MUCH MORE. ARE WE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK AFTER THIS WITNESS? THE COURT: HOPE SO. AND I HAVE ONE OTHER THING TO DISCUSS WITH YOU WHEN WE TAKE OUR BREAK. DON'T GO AWAY. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MR. COCHRAN, WOULD YOU CONCLUDE YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION, PLEASE. MR. COCHRAN: CERTAINLY, YOUR HONOR. MAY I PROCEED? THE COURT: YES. Q BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, MR. BOZTEPE, DID YOU HERE MR. SCHWAB SAY TO OFFICER ROBERTS THAT, "WHEN I FIRST SAW IT," MEANING THE AKITA, "IT WAS AROUND 11:15 P.M."? A I DON'T REMEMBER. Q DID YOU HEAR MR. SCHWAB GIVE THE OFFICER A TIME THAT HE FIRST SAW THE DOG THAT NIGHT? A I GUESS SO. Q ALL RIGHT. A I'M NOT SO SURE. Q YOU'RE NOT SURE OF THE TIME. YOU HEARD HIM GIVE A TIME YOU BELIEVE? A I'M NOT SO SURE ABOUT HE'S GIVING THE TIME. Q ALL RIGHT. YOU DON'T HAVE A RECOLLECTION OF THAT? A NO. Q ALL RIGHT. DID YOU SEE THE POLICE OFFICER WHO WAS TALKING TO MR. SCHWAB WRITE DOWN NOTES ABOUT WHAT MR. SCHWAB SAID? A HE WAS WRITING SOMETHING. Q HE WAS WRITING DOWN? AND HE WAS WRITING DOWN NOTES SIMILAR TO THE WAY HE HAD WRITTEN DOWN NOTES WITH YOU AT THE STATION. IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT? MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. COCHRAN: I'M ASKING IF HE SAW IT. MS. CLARK: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, SIMILAR TO? THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: LOOKED LIKE. Q BY MR. COCHRAN: LOOKED LIKE? A LOOKED LIKE. Q WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? THE COURT: IT MEANS THAT -- YOU ASKED HIM WAS IT SIMILAR AND HE SAID YES, LOOKED LIKE. MR. COCHRAN: EXCUSE ME FOR ELABORATING, YOUR HONOR. Q BY MR. COCHRAN: LOOKED LIKE, MEANING LOOKED LIKE THE SAME THING; IS THAT RIGHT, SIR? A I DIDN'T SEE WHAT HE WROTE WHEN I WAS TALKING TO HIM. SO -- Q I UNDERSTAND. A IT LOOKED LIKE A PAPER AND PEN. Q BUT HE HAD A NOTEPAD OR WHATEVER; IS THAT RIGHT? A CORRECT. (BRIEF PAUSE.) MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. THANK YOU. THE COURT: MISS CLARK, ANY REDIRECT FOR MR. BOZTEPE? MS. CLARK: VERY BRIEFLY, YOUR HONOR. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK: Q SIR, DID MR. SCHWAB TELL YOU WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN HE FIRST LEFT HIS APARTMENT TO WALK HIS DOG THAT NIGHT? A I DON'T REMEMBER. Q DO YOU RECALL HIM TELLING YOU ABOUT WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN HE FOUND THE AKITA AT BUNDY AND DOROTHY? A I DON'T REMEMBER. Q YOU DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING HE TOLD YOU ABOUT THAT NIGHT? A HE TOLD ME SOMETHING, BUT I DON'T -- I DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING ABOUT THE TIME. Q YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHAT HE TOLD YOU ABOUT THE TIMES? A I DON'T. Q BUT HE DID TELL YOU ABOUT HAVING FOUND THE DOG AT DOROTHY AND BUNDY? A CORRECT. Q AND THAT WAS AT SOME POINT EARLIER BEFORE YOU SAW HIM THAT NIGHT? A SURE. Q AND DO YOU -- WHEN HE WAS SPEAKING TO THE POLICE OFFICER -- TELL HIM ABOUT THE SAME THING THAT HE WAS TELLING YOU, ABOUT WHERE HE FOUND THE DOG? A I WASN'T CONCENTRATING ON THE ACTION OF THE TIME. SO I DON'T KNOW. Q AT THE TIME THAT THE POLICE OFFICER WAS THERE? A YES. Q WERE YOU PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT HE WAS TELLING THE POLICE OFFICER? A NOT REALLY. Q SO WERE YOU PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT TIMES HE WAS SAYING TO THE POLICE OFFICER THAT NIGHT? A NO. Q AND DO YOU REMEMBER -- YOU HAVE NO SPECIFIC RECOLLECTION OF THE TIMES THAT HE TOLD YOU? A NO. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. MR. COCHRAN: ONE LAST QUESTION. RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN: Q MR. BOZTEPE, WHEN THE POLICE OFFICERS BROUGHT YOU BACK HOME -- THEY BROUGHT YOU AND YOUR WIFE BACK HOME; IS THAT CORRECT? A CORRECT. Q AND THE POLICE OFFICER WAS BEING -- WAS HE CONDUCTING THESE INTERVIEWS IN A RATHER FRIENDLY MANNER? HE WASN'T BEING HOSTILE OR ANYTHING, WAS HE? A HE WAS PRETTY FRIENDLY. Q HE WAS PRETTY FRIENDLY? A SURE. Q AND WHEN YOU OBSERVED MR. SCHWAB TALKING TO THE POLICE OFFICER, WAS IT PRETTY MUCH A CONVERSATION LIKE YOU AND I ARE HAVING, THE OFFICER WOULD ASK QUESTIONS AND MR. SCHWAB WOULD RESPOND TO THE QUESTIONS? A CORRECT. Q MR. SCHWAB DIDN'T SEEM TO BE ANGRY OR ANYTHING, DID HE, AT THAT POINT? A NO. Q SEEMED TO BE LIKE NORMAL TO YOU AT THAT TIME? A I THOUGHT HE WAS SLEEPY WHEN HE WAS TALKING. Q OTHER THAN BEING SLEEPY, HE SEEMED TO BE NORMAL? A AS NORMAL AS YOU CAN BE. Q ALL RIGHT. AS NORMAL AS ONE COULD BE? A AS NORMAL AS YOU CAN BE AT 5:00 O'CLOCK. Q YOU COULD UNDERSTAND -- HE HAD BEEN SLEEPING, BUT YOU COULD UNDERSTAND WHAT HE WAS SAYING WHEN HE RESPONDED TO THE OFFICER'S QUESTIONS; ISN'T THAT CORRECT? A CAN YOU REPEAT IT, PLEASE? Q YES. WE UNDERSTAND IT WAS 5:30 OR SO IN THE MORNING. BUT YOU COULD UNDERSTAND MR. SCHWAB'S RESPONSES TO THE OFFICER'S QUESTIONS, COULDN'T YOU, THE PART YOU LISTENED TO? A WELL, HE WAS RESPONDING, BUT I WASN'T LISTENING. Q BUT HE WAS RESPONDING TO WHAT THE OFFICER ASKED HIM; IS THAT CORRECT? MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR SPECULATION. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q BY MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU ANSWER THAT? A YES, HE WAS RESPONDING. MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, SIR. I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. THE COURT: ONLY 11 QUESTIONS. MR. COCHRAN: THAT WAS LIKE ONE LONG QUESTION. THE COURT: OKAY. MISS CLARK, ANYTHING MORE FOR MR. BOZTEPE? MS. CLARK: YES. FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK: Q MR. BOZTEPE, WERE YOU -- DID YOU INDICATE THAT YOU WERE PRESENT WHEN A MAN -- THAT A MAN CAME FROM ACROSS THE STREET AND TALKED ABOUT WHEN HE HEARD DOGS BARKING? A NOT LIVING ACROSS THE STREET, BUT THE MAN WAS LIVING ACROSS THE STREET OF THE LOCATION. YEAH, HE CAME AND TALKED TO THE POLICE. Q OKAY. WERE YOU PRESENT WHEN HE DID THAT? A YES. Q AND DID YOU RECALL WHAT HE SAID TO THE POLICE? A UH, I REMEMBER THIS, BUT NOTHING ELSE. Q AND WHAT IS IT YOU REMEMBER? A HE WAS SAYING AROUND 10:30, ALL THE NEIGHBOR HEARD DOGS WAS BARKING PRETTY ABNORMALLY, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q HE WAS SAYING AROUND 10:30, THE NEIGHBORHOOD DOGS WERE BARKING? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THIS, YOUR HONOR. SHE'S JUST RESTATING WHAT HE JUST SAID. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. MS. CLARK: I'M TRYING -- YOUR HONOR, I'M JUST TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT I UNDERSTOOD HIS TESTIMONY. THE COURT: LISTEN. MS. CLARK: I'M TRYING. Q BY MS. CLARK: MR. BOZTEPE, DID -- COULD YOU PLEASE TELL US WHAT YOU HEARD THE MAN SAY? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: AROUND 10:30, ALL THE NEIGHBORHOOD DOG WAS BARKING. Q BY MS. CLARK: THAT'S WHAT YOU RECALL HEARING HIM SAY? A YES. Q AND THEN YOU TOLD THAT TO ANOTHER POLICE OFFICER? A I DON'T REMEMBER. Q LET ME SHOW YOU YOUR STATEMENT, SIR. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.) Q BY MS. CLARK: LET ME SHOW YOU THE LINE HERE, SECOND PARAGRAPH. AFTER THE POLICE ARRIVED, "THE MAN THAT LIVES ACROSS FROM THE HOUSE CAME OUT AND SAID THE NEIGHBORHOOD DOGS STARTED BARKING AT 10:30 P.M." DO YOU RECALL SAYING THAT TO THE POLICE? A WELL, PROBABLY I SAID IT, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER. Q YOU DON'T REMEMBER AT THIS TIME? A NO. Q OKAY. AND IS IT YOUR RECOLLECTION THAT THE MAN SAID AROUND 10:30? A YES. MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR, MANY TIMES. THE COURT: ANYTHING MORE? MS. CLARK: NO, THAT'S IT. THE COURT: THANK YOU. MR. COCHRAN. MR. COCHRAN: NOTHING. NOTHING FURTHER. HE MAY BE EXCUSED. THE COURT: MR. BOZTEPE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR COMING IN THIS AFTERNOON. PLEASE DON'T DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANYBODY ELSE EXCEPT THE LAWYERS ON THE CASE UNTIL THE MATTER IS CONCLUDED. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, SIR. ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A BRIEF RECESS FOR THE COURT REPORTER, 15 MINUTES. PLEASE REMEMBER MY ADMONITION TO YOU; DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONGST YOURSELVES, FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, ALLOW ANYBODY TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE CASE OR PERFORM ANY DELIBERATIONS. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN -- . THE AUDIENCE, WE ARE STILL IN SESSION, IF YOU WILL BE QUIET, PLEASE. -- I WOULD ASK YOU TO STEP INTO THE JURY ROOM, PLEASE. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. BE SEATED. MISS CLARK, WHO IS YOUR NEXT WITNESS? MS. CLARK: ELSIE TISTAERT. THE COURT: SHE IS? MS. CLARK: SHE IS THE WOMAN WHOSE DOOR WAS BANGED ON WHO CALLED 911. THE COURT: ABOUT BURGLARS? MS. CLARK: THAT'S RIGHT. THE COURT: GOT IT. MS. CLARK: I REALLY WOULD, IF I MAY, YOUR HONOR, ASK FOR THE COURT'S INDULGENCE. SHE'S 85 YEARS OLD. I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO LET HER TESTIFY AND GO HOME TODAY IF I COULD. THE COURT: WELL, WE'RE ONLY TAKING 15 MINUTES, BUT I NEED TO SHARE WITH YOU A PROBLEM. MS. CLARK: THAT'S WHAT I WAS AFRAID OF. THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU APPROACH. (A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.) (RECESS.) (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. ALL THE PARTIES ARE AGAIN PRESENT. ALL RIGHT. LET'S HAVE THE JURY, PLEASE. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. PLEASE BE SEATED. MISS CLARK, YOU MAY CALL YOUR NEXT WITNESS. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE PEOPLE CALL MISS ELSIE TISTAERT. ELSIE TISTAERT, CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE, WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: THE CLERK: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU MAY GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT, SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD. THE WITNESS: I DO. THE CLERK: PLEASE BE SEATED ON THE WITNESS STAND AND STATE AND SPELL YOUR FIRST AND LAST NAMES FOR THE RECORD. (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MA'AM, WOULD YOU PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD, PLEASE. THE WITNESS: ELSIE TISTAERT. E-L-S-I-E T, AS IN TOM, I S, AS IN SAM, T, AS IN TOM, A-E-R-T, AS IN TOM. THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, MA'AM. MISS CLARK. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK: Q GOOD AFTERNOON, MISS TISTAERT? A GOOD AFTERNOON. Q MA'AM, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE DATE OF JUNE 12, 1994, WHERE WERE YOU LIVING? A AT 874 SOUTH BUNDY DRIVE, LOS ANGELES, 90049. Q AND WAS THAT ACROSS THE STREET FROM 875 SOUTH BUNDY? A CORRECT. Q AND ON THAT NIGHT WHAT WERE YOU DOING? A I WAS AT HOME DOING SOME OF MY PERSONAL BOOKKEEPING. Q NOW, HOW LONG HAD YOU LIVED IN THAT LOCATION, MA'AM? A 51 YEARS. Q DID SOMETHING ATTRACT YOUR ATTENTION THAT NIGHT? A YES. Q WHAT WAS THAT? A BARKING OF A DOG. Q AND WHY DID IT DRAW YOUR ATTENTION? A BECAUSE IT BARKED FOR SO LONG WITHOUT ANYONE TRYING -- APPARENTLY TRYING TO QUIET IT. JUST BECAUSE IT BARKED FOR SO LONG. Q NOW, DO YOU HAVE A DOG? A YES. Q AND DID YOU HAVE A DOG ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH? A YES, YES. Q AND DID YOU KNOW OF OTHER PEOPLE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD WHO HAD DOGS? A I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY. Q HAD YOU HEARD DOGS BARKING IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD BEFORE THAT NIGHT? A NOT VERY MUCH. Q OKAY. AND THIS DOG THAT WAS BARKING THAT NIGHT WAS VERY LOUD AND LONG? A YES. Q AT SOME POINT DID YOU CALL THE POLICE BECAUSE OF THAT BARKING DOG? A YES. Q ABOUT HOW LONG HAD THE DOG BEEN BARKING WHEN YOU CALLED THE POLICE? A I BELIEVE ABOUT A HALF HOUR. Q OKAY. AND WHAT STATION DID YOU CALL? A I CALLED THE WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE STATION. Q AND WHAT DID YOU TELL THEM? A I TOLD THEM THAT THERE HAD BEEN A DOG BARKING FOR A LONG TIME AND I THOUGHT THEY SHOULD INVESTIGATE THE REASON THEREFORE. Q OKAY. BEFORE YOU CALLED THE STATION DID YOU LOOK OUTSIDE TO SEE IF YOU COULD SEE THAT DOG THAT WAS BARKING? A YEAH. YES, I DID. Q WHAT DID YOU SEE? A I SAW A DOG RUNNING BACK AND FORTH ACROSS THE STREET BARKING. Q WHEN YOU SAY "RUNNING BACK AND FORTH," DO YOU MEAN FROM ONE SIDE OF THE STREET TO THE OTHER? A NO, NO, JUST FOR, OH, POSSIBLY FOR TEN OR FIFTEEN FEET, FROM ONE -- FROM THE LAMPPOST OR SOMETHING THAT IS AT THE STREET THERE BACK TO TEN OR FIFTEEN FEET BACK AWAY FROM THE STREET. Q OKAY. SO CAN YOU DESCRIBE, IN RELATIONSHIP TO 875 SOUTH BUNDY, ACROSS THE STREET FROM YOU, WHERE DID YOU SEE THE DOG MOVING AROUND? A AT THE DRIVEWAY THAT HAS BEEN IN SO MANY PICTURES SINCE. Q OKAY. A BACK AND FORTH IN THAT DRIVEWAY? A WALKWAY IT IS. NOT A DRIVEWAY; IT IS A DRIVEWAY. Q YOU MEAN THE WALKWAY WHERE A WOMAN'S BODY WAS FOUND? A YES. Q THAT IS THE AREA YOU SAW THE DOG RUNNING IN? A YES. Q IT WAS BARKING AT THAT TIME? A YES. Q SO YOU CALLED -- AFTER YOU LOOKED OUT AND YOU SAW THAT DOG -- CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE DOG FOR US, MA'AM? A NOT VERY WELL, NO. IT WAS -- ALL I CAN SAY IS IT WAS A MEDIUM-SIZED DOG, PROBABLY -- PROBABLY NOT DARK, PROBABLY MEDIUM IN COLOR, TOO, BUT THAT IS AS CLOSE AS I CAN GET. Q OKAY. SO THE FUR DID NOT APPEAR BLACK? IT WAS LIGHTER THAN THAT? A RIGHT. Q YOU COULDN'T TELL IF IT WAS WHITE OR BEIGE? A NOT HONESTLY, NO. Q WAS THAT THE ONLY DOG YOU SAW RUNNING AROUND AND BARKING LIKE THAT? A YES, YES. Q SO THEN YOU CALLED THE WEST L.A. POLICE STATION? A CORRECT. Q AND YOU TOLD THEM ABOUT THAT DOG? A YES. Q AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED? A THEY SUGGESTED I CALL ANIMAL SHELTER. BARKING DOGS WERE NOT IN THEIR SPHERE OF INFLUENCE, NOT IN WHAT THEY HAD TO TAKE CARE OF. Q OKAY. AND DID YOU? A I TRIED TO CALL ANIMAL SHELTER BUT THE LINE WAS BUSY, AND I WAITED A LITTLE WHILE LONGER, TRIED IT AGAIN, AND THE LINE WAS STILL BUSY, AND THEN I THINK I MAY HAVE TRIED ONCE OR TWICE MORE. I DON'T RECALL ANY MORE AFTER THIS LENGTH OF TIME. THE LINE WAS STILL BUSY. I HAD WORK TO DO, SO I WENT TO THE BACK OF MY HOUSE AND TRIED TO IGNORE ANYTHING THAT MIGHT BE ANY NOISE OR ANYTHING SO I COULD DO MY WORK. Q OKAY. SO YOU WENT BACK TO DOING YOUR BOOKKEEPING? A CORRECT. Q AND WHILE YOU WERE DOING YOUR BOOKKEEPING, LATER THAT NIGHT DID SOMETHING UNUSUAL HAPPEN? A NOT WHILE I WAS DOING MY BOOKKEEPING. AFTER I FINISHED AND WENT TO BED MY DOOR CHIMES STARTED TO RING -- RANG FOUR OR FIVE OR SIX TIMES IN SUCCESSION. Q AND WHAT TIME WAS THAT WHEN THAT HAPPENED? A ACCORDING TO MY RECOLLECTION, A FEW MINUTES AFTER MIDNIGHT, A FEW MINUTES AFTER 12:00. Q HAD THAT EVER HAPPENED BEFORE? A NO. Q DID THAT SCARE YOU? A YES, DEFINITELY. Q DID YOU ANSWER YOUR DOOR? A PARDON ME? I DIDN'T HEAR YOU. Q I'M SORRY. A NO, NO, I DID NOT ANSWER MY DOOR, NOT A FEW MINUTES AFTER MIDNIGHT. I WOULDN'T GO TO THAT DOOR THAT TIME OF NIGHT. Q SO WHAT DID YOU DO? A I CALLED 911. Q AND WHAT DID YOU TELL THEM? A I TOLD THEM THAT I WAS FEARFUL OF AN INTRUDER. Q AND DID YOU TELL THEM SOMEONE WAS RINGING YOUR DOORBELL? A YES. Q AND DID THEY TELL YOU -- A I THINK. I THINK I DID. I PROBABLY DID. Q AT THAT TIME, WHILE YOU WERE ON THE CALL -- ON THE PHONE WITH THEM, DID YOU TELL THEM ABOUT THE BARKING DOG AGAIN? A I DOUBT IT. I CANNOT RECALL. Q OKAY. A I DON'T WANT TO ANSWER THAT. I DON'T RECALL. Q OKAY. A HOWEVER -- HOWEVER, THERE SHOULD BE A RECORDING OF WHAT I DID TELL THEM. Q OKAY. WE KNOW 911 TAPES EXIST. A MAYBE I COULD LISTEN TO IT SOME TIME AND SEE EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. Q ALL RIGHT. DID YOU STAY ON THE LINE WITH THE 911 OPERATOR? A I DIDN'T HEAR THAT. LET'S TRY AGAIN. Q I'M SORRY. YOU HAVE A BIT OF A HEARING PROBLEM? A YES. Q THAT THING YOU ARE HOLDING IN YOUR HAND? A WHAT I'M HOLDING IN MY HAND IS MY CONTROL. Q TURN ME UP? A SO I DON'T HAVE TO STICK MY HAND IN MY EAR. Q DID YOU STAY ON THE LINE WITH THE 911 OPERATOR? A YES, YES. SHE INSISTED THAT I STAY ON THE LINE. Q OKAY. AND AT SOME POINT DID YOU TELL HER -- DID YOU TALK TO HER ABOUT WHETHER THERE WERE POLICE OFFICERS PRESENT OR NOT? A I JUST TOLD HER THAT NO ONE -- NO ONE HAD COME TO MY HOUSE IN RESPONSE TO MY CALL AND I WONDERED WHY. Q AND YOU ASKED HER WHY? A YES. Q DID SHE TELL YOU? A YES. SHE SAID THERE WAS SOMETHING BIG GOING ON ACROSS THE STREET, OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q AND ANYTHING ABOUT SENDING AN OFFICER TO YOUR HOUSE? A LET'S TRY AGAIN. Q OKAY. DID SHE SAY ANYTHING ABOUT SENDING AN OFFICER TO YOUR HOUSE? A NOT FOR QUITE A WHILE. SHE KEPT ME ON THE LINE A LONG TIME, AND THEN I FINALLY SAID, "WELL, WHY DON'T YOU SEND SOMEBODY TO MY HOUSE. I CALLED YOU." Q UH-HUH. A THEN SHE SAID, "WELL, I WILL TRY TO GET A COUPLE OF THE MEN FROM ACROSS THE STREET TO COME AND SEE." Q OKAY. AND DID A COUPLE OF OFFICERS COME TO YOUR HOUSE THEN? A YES, THEY DID. YES, THEY DID. Q DID THEY CHECK AROUND THE HOUSE FOR -- A THEY CHECKED EVERYWHERE AT MY REQUEST. THEY CHECKED VERY CAREFULLY FRONT YARD, SIDE YARD AND THE BACKYARD. Q OKAY. NOW, BY THIS TIME YOU SAID YOU HAD A DOG, MA'AM? A YES. Q AND DID YOU -- DID YOU ASK PERMISSION TO GO OUTSIDE? A WHILE I WAS ON 911 I WANTED TO QUIET MY DOG BECAUSE MY DOG HAD STARTED BARKING THEN. THIS WAS QUITE A BIT AFTER THE PERSON RANG MY DOORBELL. Q AND YOU WERE STILL ON THE LINE WITH THE 911 OPERATOR? A I WAS STILL ON THE LINE WITH 911 AND MY DOG WAS BARKING. I ASKED PERMISSION TO TRY TO QUIET THE DOG OR BRING HER IN AND THEY SAID "DON'T GO NEAR YOUR DOORS OR WINDOWS." Q SO THEY WANTED YOU TO STAY INSIDE? A WANTED ME TO STAY INSIDE. Q AFTER THE OFFICERS CAME AND CHECKED YOUR HOUSE, CHECKED AROUND ALL THE DOORS AND THE SIDE AND THE BACK, DID THEY LET YOU GO OUTSIDE? A THEY SUGGESTED I NOT GO OUTSIDE. THEY SUGGESTED I JUST STAY PUT, GO BACK -- TRY TO GO TO SLEEP -- Q OKAY. A -- AND MIND MY OWN BUSINESS. Q DID THEY -- A I THINK. Q DID THEY -- DID THEY ALLOW YOU TO GO OUT INTO THE BACK OF YOUR RESIDENCE TO QUIET YOUR DOG? A THEY ASKED ME TO BRING THE DOG IN SO THAT THEY COULD CHECK THE BACKYARD. Q UH-HUH. AND DID YOU DO THAT? A BECAUSE IT IS A WATCHDOG. IT IS A WATCHDOG. Q DID YOU DO THAT? A YES, I DID. Q YOU BROUGHT THE DOG IN? A I BROUGHT THE DOG IN. Q THEN THEY CHECKED AROUND BACK? A THEN THEY CHECKED AROUND IN BACK. Q IT WAS ALL CLEAR? A EVERYTHING WAS OKAY. THEY TOLD ME EVERYTHING WAS FINE. MS. CLARK: OKAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN. MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN: Q GOOD AFTERNOON, MISS TISTAERT. HOW ARE YOU? A FINE, THANK YOU, I THINK. Q AS I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'VE TOLD US, YOU NEVER CAME OUT OF YOUR HOUSE THAT NIGHT FROM THE TIME YOU MADE THE CALL TO THE ANIMAL SHELTER AND THEN THE CALL AFTER THAT TO 911? YOU STAYED INSIDE THE HOUSE? A THAT IS WHAT I RECALL, YES, EXCEPT TO GO IN THE BACK TO BRING MY DOG IN. Q ALL RIGHT. YOU WENT -- A THE BACKYARD. Q IN YOUR BACKYARD? A YES. Q YOU DIDN'T COME OUT THE FRONT, HOWEVER, THOUGH? A SINCE THE OFFICERS TOLD ME NOT TO, I DID NOT DO SO. Q I UNDERSTAND. AND YOU HAVE LIVED IN THIS PARTICULAR HOUSE FOR 51 YEARS? A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) I'M SORRY? Q ARE YOU TUNING ME OUT? THE COURT: WHERE CAN I GET ONE OF THOSE? MR. COCHRAN: ONLY IF YOU DO IT FOR BOTH SIDES, YOUR HONOR. Q BY MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW? A YES. THE COURT: GREAT STRAIGHT LINE. MR. COCHRAN: TOUCHE. Q WITH REGARD TO THE EVENTS OF THAT EVENING, LET ME ASK YOU A FEW QUESTIONS, IF I MIGHT. I BELIEVE YOU INDICATED THAT YOU HAD CALLED 911 SOMETIME AFTER MIDNIGHT; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. Q AND THEY KEPT YOU ON THE PHONE FOR A PERIOD OF TIME; IS THAT RIGHT? A YES. Q CAN YOU TELL US HOW LONG YOU WERE ON THE PHONE BEFORE YOU ULTIMATELY HUNG THE PHONE UP? A I CAN'T TELL YOU BECAUSE I DIDN'T WATCH THE TIME AND AT THIS POINT OF TIME I CAN'T RECALL. Q ALL RIGHT. A IT WOULD JUST BE GUESSWORK. Q WE DON'T WANT YOU TO GUESS. SO YOU CAN'T TELL US HOW LONG IT WAS? A NO. Q BUT YOU TALKED TO 911. THEY GAVE YOU PERMISSION TO GO INTO YOUR BACKYARD AT SOME POINT, RIGHT? A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) Q TO GET YOUR DOG? A NO, 911 DID NOT. Q THE POLICE OFFICERS DID THAT? A YES. Q OKAY. SO WHEN THE POLICE OFFICERS CAME TO YOUR DOOR, YOU HUNG UP THE PHONE AT THAT POINT FROM 911? A WHEN THEY CAME TO THE DOOR WHAT? Q WHEN THE POLICE OFFICERS CAME TO YOUR DOOR -- WHEN THE TWO POLICE OFFICERS CAME ACROSS THE STREET TO YOUR DOOR, DID YOU THEN HANG UP THE 911 OPERATOR? A PROBABLY. IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME. PROBABLY. Q I UNDERSTAND. YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION, RIGHT. AND HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN DOING YOUR BOOKKEEPING THAT PARTICULAR EVENING? A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) Q DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME YOU STARTED? A PROBABLY SIX OR SEVEN HOURS. Q SIX OR SEVEN HOURS? A YES. I HAD A LOT TO CATCH UP ON. Q OKAY. I UNDERSTAND. NOW, WHAT TIME DO YOU THINK YOU STARTED THAT BOOKKEEPING? A I HAVEN'T ANY IDEA. Q OKAY. WHAT TIME DID YOU FINISH? A I STOPPED AT JUST -- AT JUST ABOUT TWELVE O'CLOCK. Q ALL RIGHT. SO IF YOU STOPPED AT ABOUT TWELVE O'CLOCK AND YOU DID IT FOR SIX OR SEVEN HOURS, YOU MAY HAVE STARTED AS EARLY AS FIVE O'CLOCK IN THE AFTERNOON; IS THAT RIGHT? A MAYBE. IT IS POSSIBLE I STARTED AT EIGHT O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING. THERE IS NO TELLING. I SOMETIMES WORK TWELVE HOURS OR FOURTEEN HOURS A DAY SOMETIMES WHEN I HAVE BOOKWORK LIKE THAT. Q I UNDERSTAND. AND HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THE 911 TAPE WHEN YOU WERE SPEAKING TO THE -- A NO. Q YOU HAVE NOT HEARD THAT TAPE? A NO. THAT IS WHAT I SAID, I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR IT. Q DOES MRS. CLARK HAVE THAT TAPE? MS. CLARK: NO. MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. MS. CLARK: AM I TESTIFYING NOW? MR. COCHRAN: I WASN'T ASKING YOU; I WAS ASKING HER. Q DO YOU KNOW IF MISS CLARK HAS THAT TAPE? A PARDON? Q DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT MISS CLARK HAS THAT 911 TAPE? A NO. Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, BEFORE YOU CALLED 911, YOU HAD CALLED WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT? A CORRECT. Q AND THEY HAD ASKED YOU TO CALL ANIMAL CONTROL? A CORRECT. Q DO YOU KNOW WHEN THAT WAS, APPROXIMATELY? A NO, I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY. Q YOU CAN'T GIVE US A TIME ON THAT EITHER? A NOT REALLY, NO. Q YOU WERE JUST WORKING INSIDE AND NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THE TIME, RIGHT? A MORE OR LESS, YES. Q ALL RIGHT. WERE YOU WEARING A WATCH THAT NIGHT? A PARDON? Q WERE YOU WEARING A WATCH THAT NIGHT? A PROBABLY, BUT I MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT IT TOO OFTEN. NOW AFTER ALL THIS TIME THERE ARE THINGS I CAN'T RECALL. MR. COCHRAN: I UNDERSTAND. I UNDERSTAND. WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. YOU HAVE BEEN HELPFUL. I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, MR. COCHRAN. MISS CLARK, DO YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS? MS. CLARK: NO, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS TISTAERT? THE WITNESS: YES. THE COURT: I'M GOING TO EXCUSE YOU FOR THE AFTERNOON. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR COMING IN. THE WITNESS: OKAY. THE COURT: PLEASE DON'T DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANYBODY ELSE, EXCEPT THE LAWYERS ON THE CASE, UNTIL THE MATTER IS OVER. OKAY? THE WITNESS: YES. THE COURT: MISS CLARK, WOULD YOU LIKE TO ASSIST MISS TISTAERT. MS. CLARK: YES, I WOULD. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, IS YOUR NEXT WITNESS THE FIRST OFFICER? MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR. I ANTICIPATE HIS TESTIMONY WILL NOT BE BRIEF. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, IF YOU RECALL, WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON IS ONE OF OUR SHORT AFTERNOONS FOR VISIT PURPOSES. ALSO, I WOULD LIKE YOU TO KNOW THAT I HAVE BEEN MAKING ARRANGEMENTS FOR US TO GO OUT TO THE BUNDY ADDRESS AND TO THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS IN THE NEXT PERHAPS NEXT TWO WEEKS, SOMETIME IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS, FOR YOU TO ACTUALLY SEE THE LOCATIONS THAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT. AND JUST TO LET YOU KNOW THAT WE WILL BE HAVING A COURT SESSION OUT IN THE FIELD, SO TO SPEAK. THAT WILL BE COMING UP IN THE NEXT PERHAPS WEEK TO TWO WEEKS. ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. COUNSEL, RATHER THAN START THE NEW WITNESS NOW WITH ONLY SEVEN MINUTES TO GO, I'M GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS AT THIS TIME AND I'M GOING TO ASK COUNSEL TO STAY, THOUGH, BECAUSE THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS WE NEED TO PUT ON THE RECORD AFTER WE EXCUSE THE JURY. MR. COCHRAN: YES, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE WILL STAND IN RECESS THEN UNTIL TOMORROW MORNING AS FAR AS THE JURY IS CONCERNED UNTIL NINE O'CLOCK TOMORROW MORNING. (AT 3:56 P.M. THE JURY WAS EXCUSED AND THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. HAVE A SEAT. ALL RIGHT. COUNSEL, I JUST WANTED TO PUT ON THE RECORD, I DISCUSSED THIS WITH YOU AT THE SIDE BAR, WITHOUT THE REPORTER BEING PRESENT, AND I HAVE RECEIVED A NOTE FROM A JUROR FROM ANOTHER COURTROOM APPARENTLY INDICATING THAT THEY OBSERVED THIS MORNING TWO OF OUR WITNESSES WATCHING SOME OF THE T.V. MONITORS OUTSIDE IN THE HALLWAY BEFORE THEY THEY WERE -- REPORTER OLSON: I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR. I CAN'T HEAR BECAUSE OF THE AUDIENCE REENTERING THE COURTROOM. (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET ME FINISH THE SENTENCE. -- BEFORE THEY WERE BROUGHT IN. I HAVE NOT BEEN OUT IN THE HALLWAY RECENTLY. MISS HAYSLETT, I HAVE A NOTE HERE INDICATING THAT APPARENTLY THERE ARE TWO TELEVISION MONITORS OUT IN THE HALLWAY RIGHT NOW. MS. HAYSLETT: THERE IS ONE THAT I KNOW OF. IT IS A MONITOR THAT THE OPERATOR OF THE REMOTE STILL CAMERA USES IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO TAKE SHOTS INSIDE THE COURTROOM. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. IS THAT VISIBLE TO INDIVIDUALS OUT IN THE HALLWAY? MS. HAYSLETT: IT IS COVERED WITH NEWSPAPERS ON ALL SIDES AND IT IS FACING THE WALL, SO IT IS NOT VISIBLE UNLESS SOMEBODY GETS AROUND BEHIND IT BESIDE THE OPERATOR, WHICH THE OPERATOR HAS BEEN VERY DILIGENT TO KEEP PEOPLE AWAY FROM. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WAS THAT THE CONDITION THIS MORNING? MS. HAYSLETT: YES. THE COURT: ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY OTHER MONITOR THAT MIGHT BE OUT THERE? MS. HAYSLETT: I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY. I WILL BE GLAD TO CHECK. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET ME ASK IF COUNSEL IS AWARE OF ANY MONITORS -- ANY OTHER MONITORS OTHER THAN THE REMOTE STILL CAMERA? MR. COCHRAN: NO. WE ARE NOT, YOUR HONOR. WE KNOW THERE IS ONE OUTSIDE, THE ONE THAT JERIANNE IS TALKING ABOUT. THE COURT: THE NOTE IS PRETTY SPECIFIC THAT THERE ARE WERE T.V. MONITORS, HOWEVER, WITHOUT SOUND. MY FIRST IMPRESSION IS THAT THIS IS A VIOLATION OF THE COURT'S ORDER THAT THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE WATCHING ANY OF THE TESTIMONY; HOWEVER, I'M NOT CONCERNED ABOUT IT SINCE THERE WAS NO SOUND. HOWEVER, MR. COCHRAN CORRECTLY OBSERVED THAT WE HAVE EXHIBITED EXHIBITS ON THE TELEVISION MONITOR WHICH WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT IS INAPPROPRIATE FOR THEM TO BE WATCHING, AND APPARENTLY THEY WERE IN THE TOW OF SOMEBODY, SO I WOULD ADMONISH BOTH SIDES TO MAKE SURE THAT IF YOU HAVE WITNESSES WAITING OUTSIDE, THAT THEY BE NOT ALLOWED TO WATCH ANY OF THE MONITOR COVERAGE OUTSIDE, AND THAT IS A CLEAR VIOLATION. MS. CLARK: WE WILL TAKE CARE OF THAT. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. ANYTHING ELSE WE NEED TO PUT ON THE RECORD? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, WE NEED TO JUST APPROACH A MINUTE AT THE SIDE BAR PERHAPS. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. (A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.) (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. ANYTHING ELSE WE NEED TO CHAT ON THE RECORD ABOUT BEFORE WE TAKE OUR RECESS? MS. CLARK: I HOPE NOT. MR. COCHRAN: SORRY, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN, ANYTHING ELSE WE NEED TO PUT ON THE RECORD BEFORE WE NEED TO TAKE OUR RECESS FOR THIS AFTERNOON? MR. COCHRAN: NO, YOUR HONOR. MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR, THERE IS. THE COURT: YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE. I ASKED OVER THERE. MS. CLARK: I KNOW. THE COURT: WHAT IS IT? MS. CLARK: I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH ON THE RECORD. WELL, ACTUALLY I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF WE HAVE TO APPROACH. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: LET'S COME UP, BUT ON THE RECORD. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. ON THE RECORD WITH THE COURT REPORTER. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE OVER AT THE SIDE BAR. MISS CLARK. MS. CLARK: I HAVE BEEN INFORMED BY OUR MEDIA RELATIONS DIRECTOR THAT MR. SHAPIRO HAS BEEN TELLING REPORTERS THAT OUR FUTURE WITNESSES HAVE BEEN WATCHING TELEVISION. THAT IS FALSE AND IT IS UNFAIR AND IT IS THE KIND OF SMEAR CAMPAIGN TACTICS THAT WE OBJECT TO STRENUOUSLY. WE HAVE REFRAINED FROM THAT SORT OF THING. WE WOULD ASK THE COURT TO ORDER MR. SHAPIRO NOT TO MAKE THESE FALSE REPRESENTATIONS TO THE PRESS FOR THE PURPOSE OF ENGAGING IN FURTHER SMEAR CAMPAIGN TACTICS. THE COURT: MR. SHAPIRO, DO YOU WANT TO RESPOND TO THAT? MR. SHAPIRO: YEAH. TOTAL LIE. MS. CLARK: MR. SHAPIRO IS ACCUSING MISS CHILDS OF LYING WHEN SHE SAW HIM ON TELEVISION STATING THAT OUR FUTURE WITNESSES HAVE BEEN WATCHING TELEVISION? MR. SHAPIRO: TOTAL LIE. I WILL SAY IT TWICE. I WILL SAY IT OUT IN PUBLIC RIGHT NOW. MS. CLARK: I GUESS WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GO AND GET THE TAPE THEN. MR. SHAPIRO: I HAVEN'T SAID A WORD ON CAMERA IN ABOUT PROBABLY TWO MONTHS, OTHER THAN WALKING IN TODAY AND THEY ASKED ME ABOUT THE PINS AND I SAID, YOU KNOW, "I THINK MUCH TOO MUCH TIME IS CONSUMED OVER AN ISSUE THAT HAS NO RELEVANCE TO THE OUTCOME OF THIS CASE." MR. BAILEY: WHAT HE REALLY SAID IS HE IS GOING TO TAKE HIS WINGS OFF. MS. CLARK: MR. SHAPIRO HAS BEEN ON CAMERA EVERY DAY FOR THE LAST TWO MONTHS. MR. SHAPIRO: NOT TALKING. MS. CLARK: I CAN PRODUCE TAPE TO IMPEACH THAT, EVERY DAY. THE COURT: COUNSEL, ON THAT PLEASANT NOTE, WE WILL TAKE OUR RECESS FOR THE AFTERNOON. MS. CLARK: I WOULD SIMPLY ASK THE COURT TO -- THE COURT: IF YOU HAVE VIDEOTAPE TO THE CONTRARY -- MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. THE COURT: THANK YOU. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. COUNSEL, THANK YOU. WE WILL STAND IN RECESS THEN UNTIL NINE O'CLOCK TOMORROW MORNING. (AT 4:10 P.M. AN ADJOURNMENT WAS TAKEN UNTIL, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 9, 1995, 9:00 A.M.) SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, ) ) PLAINTIFF, ) ) ) VS. ) NO. BA097211 ) ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, ) ) ) DEFENDANT. ) REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1995 VOLUME 84 PAGES 13755 THROUGH 13995, INCLUSIVE APPEARANCES: (SEE PAGE 2) JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR #4588 CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR #2378 OFFICIAL REPORTERS APPEARANCES: FOR THE PEOPLE: GIL GARCETTI, DISTRICT ATTORNEY BY: MARCIA R. CLARK, WILLIAM W. HODGMAN, CHRISTOPHER A. DARDEN, CHERI A. LEWIS, ROCKNE P. HARMON, GEORGE W. CLARKE, SCOTT M. GORDON LYDIA C. BODIN, HANK M. GOLDBERG, AND DARRELL S. MAVIS, DEPUTIES 18-000 CRIMINAL COURTS BUILDING 210 WEST TEMPLE STREET LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90012 FOR THE DEFENDANT: ROBERT L. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE SARA L. CAPLAN, ESQUIRE 2121 AVENUE OF THE STARS 19TH FLOOR LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90067 JOHNNIE L. COCHRAN, JR., ESQUIRE BY: CARL E. DOUGLAS, ESQUIRE SHAWN SNIDER CHAPMAN, ESQUIRE 4929 WILSHIRE BOULEVARD SUITE 1010 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90010 GERALD F. UELMEN, ESQUIRE ROBERT KARDASHIAN, ESQUIRE ALAN DERSHOWITZ, ESQUIRE F. LEE BAILEY, ESQUIRE BARRY SCHECK, ESQUIRE ROBERT D. BLAISER, ESQUIRE I N D E X INDEX FOR VOLUME 84 PAGES 13755 - 13995 ----------------------------------------------------- DAY DATE SESSION PAGE VOL. WEDNESDAY FEBRUARY 8, 1995 A.M. 13755 84 P.M. 13888 84 ----------------------------------------------------- PROCEEDINGS MOTION TO QUASH SUBPOENA OF 13888 84 MARGUERITE THOMAS (RESUMED) LEGEND: MS. CLARK - MC MR. HODGMAN - H MR. DARDEN D MR. KAHN - K MR. GOLDBERG - GB MR. GORDON - G MR. SHAPIRO - S MR. COCHRAN - C MR. DOUGLAS - CD MR. BAILEY - B MR. UELMEN - U MR. SCHECK - BS MR. NEUFELD - N ----------------------------------------------------- CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES PEOPLE'S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS VOL. STEIN, EVA 13780MC 13791C 13800MC 84 KARPF, KOUIS 13804MC 13815C 13832MC 13839C 84 (FURTHER) 13842MC SCHWAB, STEVEN 13852MC 84 (RESUMED) 13891MC 13899CD 13918MC BOZTEPE, SUKRU 13928MC 13945C 13961MC 13963C 84 (FURTHER) 13965MC TISTAERT, ELSIE 13971MC 13981C 84 ALPHABETICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES PEOPLE'S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS VOL. BOZTEPE, SUKRU 13928MC 13945C 13961MC 13963C 84 (FURTHER) 13965MC KARPF, KOUIS 13804MC 13815C 13832MC 13839C 84 (FURTHER) 13842MC SCHWAB, STEVEN 13852MC 84 (RESUMED) 13891MC 13899CD 13918MC STEIN, EVA 13780MC 13791C 13800MC 84 TISTAERT, ELSIE 13971MC 13981C 84 EXHIBITS PEOPLE'S FOR IN EXHIBIT IDENTIFICATION EVIDENCE PAGE VOL. PAGE VOL. 38-A - PHOTOGRAPH 13802 84 38-B - PHOTOGRAPH 13802 84 38-C - PHOTOGRAPH (NOT MARKED ON THE RECORD) 40 - POSTERBOARD WITH 13810 84 THREE PHOTOGRAPHS OF A DOG AND ONE PHOTOGRAPH OF A DOG COLLAR 41-1 THRU 41-E - 13857 84 5 PHOTOGRAPHS 42 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 13944 84 WALKWAY WITH VICTIM NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON ?? 13763